Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Semirhage]

Im well aware that FFXIV originally had a more robust rpg centric combat system but I was making the point that the devs reasoning behind "simplifying" jobs were due to that change in philosophy over the years. Heck even WoW to an extent started to do that. In fact...a lot of MMOs seem to stray far from the complexities of stat based combat in favor of more action oriented style of combat. Just look at games like Lost Ark and BDO.

This is a trend I've noticed with modern games, and I'm pretty deep in the camp of hating it. Action combat isn't *incapable* of catching my interest, but it definitely has a steeper climb than something with complexity. I'm aware I'm in a minority in the gaming landscape here.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard something like "finally, a system that fixes the problems with RPG combat systems". I don't see it that way at all. I see it replacing choice, clever ability stacking, and interesting interactions with *dodgeroll dodgeroll dodgeroll swing swing dodgeroll swing dodge swing dodge swing swing swing dodge* which is simply, to put it in RPG terms, replacing INT checks with DEX checks. I don't mind having my DEX checked. I mind when literally all of the challenge in a game boils down to twitch reflexes. I'll get bored pretty fast.

/unsolicited personal whining derailment

[AngeliouxRein]

I don't think Hyo was trying to argue. Just taking you down memory lane and using examples as to all that went wrong with AST and healers as a whole as time went on. Your original comment was you bringing up the topic of what would this game be like if stayed the way it was or if the current version is best in a rough summary. Hyo is just responding to it in a form of discussion, not argument.

I do wonder if healers would've had the chance of seeing something more grand appear in their kits. Such as, SCH having more abilities locked behind fairy. A reason for possibly three different fairies to exist for different stuff... man I miss old SCH just as much as AST. If anything, just fun thoughts at this point to have on what could've been healers instead of now.

[HyoMinPark]

Only because you're arguing over an example I made. All I said first was:

"I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what."

that comment I made about elemental resistances and stat buffs was just me bringing an example to standard rpg combat systems. NOT Necessarily saying this is what AST cards were. I was making a general view based on what you brought up but then you start assuming that what I'm talking about is AST cards alone and I'm just sitting here like....Yeah I understand, but do you get the words that are coming out of my mouth? Clearly its going into one ear and out the other. And thats whats frustrating.

All I am doing is explaining that your assumption has no bearing on why the cards didn’t work—which why they didn’t work was already present in the post I made, but you just ignored that with your speculation. The lack of those combat systems was not why the old card system failed; it was because the old card system did not allow for damage cards and utility cards to exist simultaneously. You always had to make a choice, and damage-focused choices are already better. This could have been rectified with splitting the two instead into separate Spreads—it didn’t really need combat overhauls or a removal of “DPS focused” combat.

If you bothered to read my (admittedly) long response to you, you would have realized that. I only explained old FFXIV combat and what the AST cards were since it wasn’t inherently obvious what your prior knowledge on them was, and it seems like I somehow offended you by just trying to familiarize you with what they used to be. A lot of newer players don’t know what the old effects were, and I have no way of knowing if you were one or not, outside of your forum join date. I wasn’t trying to argue semantics, nor ignoring what you were saying. I was merely responding that your points about combat had no bearing on the old system.

That said, I am ending this conversation here. Clearly, there is no way to find amiable conversation between us. I hope you have a wonderful day.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I don't think Hyo was trying to argue. Just taking you down memory lane and using examples as to all that went wrong with AST and healers as a whole as time went on. Your original comment was you bringing up the topic of what would this game be like if stayed the way it was or if the current version is best in a rough summary. Hyo is just responding to it in a form of discussion, not argument.

I do wonder if healers would've had the chance of seeing something more grand appear in their kits. Such as, SCH having more abilities locked behind fairy. A reason for possibly three different fairies to exist for different stuff... man I miss old SCH just as much as AST. If anything, just fun thoughts at this point to have on what could've been healers instead of now.

If thats the case then ok, understood. I shouldnt have blown up over it.

Thats another thing, its super weird that they took out the differences between Eos and Selene but still keep them both summonable anyway? I get there's a cosmetic thing about it but its like so seemingly negligible that who cares. The entire time in the SCH questline shows Eos anyway so why keep the two separated? NGL wish the two fairies actually alter the establish scholar skills in terms of effects to keep some semblence of variety.

[AngeliouxRein]

If thats the case then ok, understood. I shouldnt have blown up over it.

Thats another thing, its super weird that they took out the differences between Eos and Selene but still keep them both summonable anyway? I get there's a cosmetic thing about it but its like so seemingly negligible that who cares. The entire time in the SCH questline shows Eos anyway so why keep the two separated? NGL wish the two fairies actually alter the establish scholar skills in terms of effects to keep some semblence of variety.

I remember how excited I was when I first unlocked the healers. WHM being tuned to elementals, SCH gaining control over the fairies and the AST unlocking gates to tune with the cards. It was so exciting back then to see all those cutscenes and really helped getting into the concept of the healers then. Now, it's like you said, it's mostly, if not all, just cosmetic at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about 7.0 or if I will even care enough by then.

It's hard to comment about healers being boring when there's so many new players who are new to the current version of healers and enjoying them. Not that they shouldn't enjoy them. But I can't help but wonder how many would feel the same if they played the old school healers first like us Veteran healers? Would be interesting if there was some offline version of this game for newbies to see and feel the difference. Give feedback and all.

[Semirhage]

I remember how excited I was when I first unlocked the healers. WHM being tuned to elementals, SCH gaining control over the fairies and the AST unlocking gates to tune with the cards. It was so exciting back then to see all those cutscenes and really helped getting into the concept of the healers then. Now, it's like you said, it's mostly, if not all, just cosmetic at this point. I'm not sure how I feel about 7.0 or if I will even care enough by then.

It's hard to comment about healers being boring when there's so many new players who are new to the current version of healers and enjoying them. Not that they shouldn't enjoy them. But I can't help but wonder how many would feel the same if they played the old school healers first like us Veteran healers? Would be interesting if there was some offline version of this game for newbies to see and feel the difference. Give feedback and all.

I'm the unashamedly mean veteran healer in the room. I think one would have to have a brain tumor to find Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare fun for more than about two dungeons. *shrug*

[Thoosa]

I don’t think they’re that interested in veteran players as long as the new player conveyer belt keeps spinning. And the more they make the jobs more easy, (I assume) they think it will appeal to an ever growing audience - you wouldn’t think so though, since the tank and healer shortage is as bad as it ever was.

[HyoMinPark]

I don’t think they’re that interested in veteran players as long as the new player conveyer belt keeps spinning. And the more they make the jobs more easy, (I assume) they think it will appeal to an ever growing audience - you wouldn’t think so though, since the tank and healer shortage is as bad as it ever was.

I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

[Semirhage]

I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

Oh except Black Mage, because someone with actual veto power in how jobs are designed mains it. He wouldn't have as much fun if it were significantly dumbed down. But the opposite holds true for the rest of us.

[Thoosa]

I do think that they cater job changes more to entice people to play jobs they don’t normally play versus listening to those who main the jobs and have for years. I’ve thought that for a few years now.

I don’t think that’s a bad thing - getting a different perspective of how the game plays if you’re a tank or a healer keeps it fresh and you learn some new skills. It feels like they think if a player tries out a new role and they feel it’s even remotely challenging, they’ll instantly quit the game, rather than just go back to the previous role, or even try to learn and get better at the role. Maybe it’s a “oh no, it’s too much responsibility” thing? I’m not sure, if that is the thinking, that making the jobs ridiculously easy will make people suddenly change their mind about the responsibility thing.