Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[BingleNingle]

I don't think I said one has to be a dumpstercan, I said we can't pretend there aren't players who are currently challenged or don't want more and that it's a devs job to balance that out with something that's still challenging for those who choose it, along with other jobs that are less straightforward.

If you're opposed to having something for people who aren't or don't desire to be at your level then you are exactly the complaining elitist people are raving about, midcore or not. It isn't just a game for us, and the problem now is that it isn't really a game for us even though it easily could be without gatekeeping across the board one way or another.

And honestly I think the most immediate problem is tanks. One of them does our job for us and the other just got the ability to do much the same. That's a design problem. Yes our gameplay is still boring with that fixed, but I don't think "casuals" are our enemy and we spend too much time being angry at some notion that things aren't challenging enough and end up conflating two separate, albeit connected problems.

Also can we stop implying people who don't want to do what we want to do are somehow deficient? I know these forums are only here for us to insult each other but it detracts from our argument and I don't really like belittling people I'm playing a game with unless they actively hurt me.

[Semirhage]

I don't think I said one has to be a dumpstercan, I said we can't pretend there aren't players who are currently challenged or don't want more and that it's a devs job to balance that out with something that's still challenging for those who choose it, along with other jobs that are less straightforward.

You didn't, but that's not something I was directing at you. Most of my post wasn't directed at you, but at the corpus of opinions I see all too often around WHM. You stick around WHM arguments for a while, and you start to get this...pattern. Yes, yes, WHM should be improved. But not like...*improved* improved. Slow down there, it can't be actually good or anything. Better, but be really careful; hit the brakes! We can't expect Square to make it actually fun or anything, just...a little better maybe.

It nearly always comes alongside a dissertation on why 1111111111111 is horrible, insulting game design, unworthy of being called gameplay at all. It's boring. It's awful. Nobody would want to play that way. And then as part of the dissertation's closing argument, there's always "anyway, here's why this design paradigm I just spent a ton of energy raging about is PERFECT for keeping on [a healer I don't play or care about]".

I'm the evil gatekeeper healer who's sick of the jobs getting dumbed down. There hasn't -been- any meeting halfway. Things get simplified, made even more impossible to fail. And we still have threads on the front page complaining that this game's story content is too hard. Seems like even though we've hit rock bottom with simplification, it's still too hard. I've been calling for raising the skill ceiling. I've even conceded long ago that Square doesn't want to increase healing requirements. Fine. Then give us downtime activities that are commensurate with a human level of brainpower, instead of 121111111111111111. But we can't even do that. Not because the people complaining about it can't do it, but because Square seems to think that its mere existence would be too scary. I'm pretty comfortable belittling people whose opinions have contributed to ruining my fun. WHM has been destroyed to appeal to people who didn't want to play it in the first place. I don't begrudge them that if they didn't ask for it, but I'm going to be direct with anyone who argues for keeping it in its ridiculous present state.

[BingleNingle]

You didn't, but that's not something I was directing at you. Most of my post wasn't directed at you, but at the corpus of opinions I see all too often around WHM. You stick around WHM arguments for a while, and you start to get this...pattern. Yes, yes, WHM should be improved. But not like...*improved* improved. Slow down there, it can't be actually good or anything. Better, but be really careful; hit the brakes! We can't expect Square to make it actually fun or anything, just...a little better maybe.

It nearly always comes alongside a dissertation on why 1111111111111 is horrible, insulting game design, unworthy of being called gameplay at all. It's boring. It's awful. Nobody would want to play that way. And then as part of the dissertation's closing argument, there's always "anyway, here's why this design paradigm I just spent a ton of energy raging about is PERFECT for keeping on [a healer I don't play or care about]".

I'm the evil gatekeeper healer who's sick of the jobs getting dumbed down. There hasn't -been- any meeting halfway. Things get simplified, made even more impossible to fail. And we still have threads on the front page complaining that this game's story content is too hard. Seems like even though we've hit rock bottom with simplification, it's still too hard. I've been calling for raising the skill ceiling. I've even conceded long ago that Square doesn't want to increase healing requirements. Fine. Then give us downtime activities that are commensurate with a human level of brainpower, instead of 121111111111111111. But we can't even do that. Not because the people complaining about it can't do it, but because Square seems to think that its mere existence would be too scary. I'm pretty comfortable belittling people whose opinions have contributed to ruining my fun. WHM has been destroyed to appeal to people who didn't want to play it in the first place. I don't begrudge them that if they didn't ask for it, but I'm going to be direct with anyone who argues for keeping it in its ridiculous present state.

Hey, alright. I get it. You're fed up and I don't honestly blame you. Sorry if I came off as dismissive. I just also see people being kinda mean to people who otherwise don't do anything wrong outside of say "i still find healer complicated." Which clearly you disagree with and frankly I also disagree with. I feel like the most realistic expectation would include some kind of scaling curve but as you've pointed out there just isn't any indication that they even want to TRY a halfway approach or whatever. Just chop it all down. In the end we agree. That's all that matters here.

[Semirhage]

Hey, alright. I get it. You're fed up and I don't honestly blame you. Sorry if I came off as dismissive. I just also see people being kinda mean to people who otherwise don't do anything wrong outside of say "i still find healer complicated." Which clearly you disagree with and frankly I also disagree with. I feel like the most realistic expectation would include some kind of scaling curve but as you've pointed out there just isn't any indication that they even want to TRY a halfway approach or whatever. Just chop it all down. In the end we agree. That's all that matters here.

Don't worry about it, miscommunications happen. I'm a snarling, angry former healer main who despises the direction healer design has taken since Heavensward. I crack that whip every chance I get. The chuckling, dismissive way Square talks about the role makes it even more infuriating.