Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[SeverianLyonesse]

I have to disagree.

"Engagement" easily allows for bloated or shallow "Hit the shining button!" "Do your dance!" "Fill the bars!" "Follow your CD schedules!" (with nothing else to do between) "gameplay" to be taken as sufficeint just because it has you doing something, regardless of how dull that something may be.

Healers at present have plenty of buttons 'to press' and any good healer will have 100% uptime, never lacking something (singular though it may often be) to do. Under an "engagement" metric, it gets far harder to point out why that'd be insufficient.

I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

[IDontPetLalas]

I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

Check this out, you may find, for example- some parts interesting - like page 3 at the bottom http://digra.org/wp-content/uploads/...1307.06025.pdf

[SeverianLyonesse]

Check this out, you may find, for example- some parts interesting - like page 3 at the bottom http://digra.org/wp-content/uploads/...1307.06025.pdf

Ooooooo literature. Om nom nom.

[Dzian]

I think we are specifically talking about "fun engagement," or trying to quantify "fun". "Engagement" definitely gets closer to the heart of the thing because it can also entail *mental* engagement.

And again that's not really speaking to complexity: it's just...are people *wanting* to engage with the what they are doing?

The thing with Fun or Engagement is that often the determining factor is what you get out of it in relation to what you invest into it..

This doesnt have to be materialistic or tangible in anyway, just something that offers some value to the individual..

Even the most basic convertsation with 2 people can be used as an example.. if your asking someone questions and all you get back are short 1 or 2 word answers then it's far from a fun or engaging conversation. It'd honestly be considered hard work by a lot of people or a waste of time..

However if that person answers your questions with details or insights or other information, then that conversation suddenly becomes a lot more fun and engaging to have. There's a sense of value in it, even if just a better understanding or friendsihip with the person you are talking to.

Combat in FFXIV is much the same thing... This button mashing combat system isnt exactly fun or engaging for a lot of people because a pretty common complaint is most of the buttons you press are uninteresting or dont do anything. They exist for no purpose other than to keep the player busy.. and for that reason they're just not engaging or fun..

To take things to a slightly extreme level. Lets say you have the choice:

You can have 10 different skills that all do 1,000 damage and can press 1 of those skills every second. or,
You can have 1 skill that does 10,000 damage but you can only press it once in 10 seconds..

Which would be more engaging or rewarding?.
I personally would lean towards the second one because while it'd be super slow, seeing a big chunk of a bosses hp drop off when I press that button would feel more satisfying and rewarding because something actually happened instead of mashing 10 buttons and barely seeing the boss hp bar move at all. It leaves you with a feeling of "are my button presses doing anything???" which leads to an opinion I've had for a while that ffxiv combat is little more than pressing buttons to add some flashes and sparkles to what feels like auto attacks..

Jobs themselves dont help with this.. Warriors for example how does that battle axe feel heavy or powerfull when players can swing it around like a paper weight.. It just doesnt feel right and that again dampens the engagement.. Especially when you do hit a boss with that big bad battle axe and its hp bar doesnt even flinch.... There's no impact, weight or satisfaction and thus no real fun or engagement. just a mundane chore. for healers worst of all. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

[Shurrikhan]

jobs themselves dont help with this.. Warriors for example how does that battle axe feel heavy or powerfull when players can swing it around like a paper weight.. it just doesnt feel right and that again dampens the engagement.. especially when you do hit a boss with that big bad battle axe and its hp bar doesnt even flinch.... there's no impact, weight or satisfaction and thus no real fun or engagement. just a mundane chore. for healers worst of all. 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

There's scarcely any discussion of physics-visuals interaction in which XIV will look even halfway decent, come to think of it...

That said, could you imagine if our old rock-throwing did have those physics? We'd practically be Stagger Mages...

Break their knees (Stone I/II), break their ribs (Stone III), punt them skyward (Stone IV)... Give us that, with each result being visible, significant, and able to be followed up on advantageously by what would appear able to follow up on it (and perhaps with those stone casts being bankably augmentable via procs, etc.), and spamming earth spells would have been meme-worthy for a very different reason.