Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

Normal is the easy, Savage is the medium, Ultimate is the hard.

EX is supposed to be the medium, savage is supposed to be hard and Ultimate is supposed to be insane. Your statement kind of shows how watered down everything has become to appeal to the masses.

Healers have the most responsibility and are the most reactionary role. Having(to an extent) a simple rotation is purely for casual healers(like myself) to be able to perform their healing duties and contribute to DPS while not being buried in the necessity to preform a more complex DPS rotation. This is good for the casuals in the casual content. It is completely understandable that it leaves more hardcore players wanting more. However, adding too much more to the healer DPS kit(a little wouldn't hurt, agreed) would be detrimental to the casuals in casual content. Therefore, I am of the opinion that the change should come from the harder content the casuals are not doing, to receive the satisfaction all roles are looking for. Which is where I believe the statement of doing an ultimate is stemming from. From understanding that the jobs need to be made for casuals to do casual content from a business standpoint, and that players should look at the harder content for the fulfillment they desire. Of course there is always room to improve and make adjustments, the devs have always made questionable design choices in the past, I just think a lot of people miss the point being made by Yoshi and the team.

I mean this as respectfully as possible:

Adding extra buttons in either support or damage would affect casuals in almost zero ways as they probably wouldn't use them.

In the same vein that most DPS never touch Addle, Feint, Shield Samba (or the MCH/BRD equivalent), Magic Barrier, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Peloton, Sprint etc etc etc.

[Ixon]

I mean this as respectfully as possible:

Adding extra buttons in either support or damage would affect casuals in almost zero ways as they probably wouldn't use them.

In the same vein that most DPS never touch Addle, Feint, Shield Samba (or the MCH/BRD equivalent), Magic Barrier, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Peloton, Sprint etc etc etc.

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

[Allegor]

I don't get why people think that because they're anxious about playing healer, that means that healer is challenging. That's a you thing, not a game thing, friend.

The worst part is that just as many people, maybe even more, are anxious of tanking, and yet, they still have a 123 and aoe rotations, and in EW they were given even more dps skills that have nothing to do with tanking. Sure, tanks have their own issues, but the double standard is insulting at this point.

[SeverianLyonesse]

They literally made the jobs simpler from HW because too many people complained how difficult it was. Would adding one or two hurt? Probably not(like I stated before), but there is a threshold. That's why they were changed from HW in the first place.

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

[Satarn]

[Gaethan_Tessula]

People talk about how healers aren't so necessary anymore but they ignore how party finder can queue you with the most horrible tank and DPS making you use everything and run low on mp because that's just how those days are. The best are the tanks that party with you in low level dungeons with undergeared equipment, no materia and do wall to wall pulls and don't stop to let your mp recover and then yell at you why you let them die. Let's not forget about the black mages that refuse to leave their little magic circle for more DPS when the AOE might instantly kill them lol

Forget Ultimate content, just use party finder and see how bad randoms can be for that spicy challenge!

I join a lot of MINE content with sprouts as healer to "re-prog" the fights. So, sure, healing can be more interesting if others make a lot of (recoverable) mistakes.

However, it's kind of messed up that healers need to be like "I sure hope these goobers are just bad enough for me to carry!" if they hope for engagement. Plus, in Savage content and beyond, there's a lot you simply cannot make up for as a healer - if people fail personal responsibility mechanics, often the raid wipes no matter what the healer does. Content design does not match healer design past ARR, except where the assumption is that either the healer is incompetent OR the party is.

The healer exclusively as the baby-sitter, or the baby-sat, is not good game design for anything past normal content; EX and above should actually test game mastery of all players, increasing in stringency from EX, to Savage, to Ultimate. I'd argue that, at present, not even Ultimate really tests healers on their healing kit, a few phases and mechanics exempted. Rather, most harder content actually tests group coordination and solving problems largely independent of job kits (e.g., A moves here, B moves there, rest stack).

[Ixon]

I'm basically only advocating for a couple of extra buttons. Just something to better break up the monotony of spamming 1 a dozen times in a row.

Also, the current job design and balance is substantially different than it was in HW. Even the overall expectation of party members is different now that everything has been categorized into roles.

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

[Absimiliard]

EX is supposed to be the medium, savage is supposed to be hard and Ultimate is supposed to be insane. Your statement kind of shows how watered down everything has become to appeal to the masses.

Except EX has always been a cakewalk, savage has ranged from braindead easy to actually killing statics depending on expansion and raid tier, and ultimate, despite hardly anyone bothering to do it, generally isn't any more difficult than savage.

[IDontPetLalas]

While I am not disagreeing with any healers sentiment for more of a challenge with their jobs both healing and dps wise,
However, I am a casual when it comes to healing. I do it only every once in a while when I am bored,
Now, I understand fully, I really do, how healing can be an absolute snooze fest in scripted content with competent members, over geared teammates, and under tuned fights. I talk about it with my healers all the time. However, going back to my first point, each job is made with every player in mind, for every piece of content.

Let me be clear, any job is boring if the content is easy.

Healers have the most responsibility and are the most reactionary role. Having(to an extent) a simple rotation is purely for casual healers(like myself) to be able to perform their healing duties and contribute to DPS while not being buried in the necessity to preform a more complex DPS rotation.Of course there is always room to improve and make adjustments, the devs have always made questionable design choices in the past, I just think a lot of people miss the point being made by Yoshi and the team.

*snip for length*
Point 1- If you play a healer one hour a week, quite a few of the changes that healers mains are asking for wouldn't impact you. I'll give you an example- IF the option to add more DPS functions was added in, the chances are are you would not use them- I wouldn't expect you to, and no one can harass you under the TOS.

point 2- is it fair to restrict functions based upon those people who level a job and forget it? I would say no. Listen to those people who actually main those jobs.

Point 3- No, not all jobs are boring if the content is easy. Healers are the ONLY jobs that hit 1 button for literally 90% of the time. Saying "do ultimate or savage " is BS. Many players aren't interested in that content, you are conflating engagement with difficulty.

Point 4 - healers have responsibility, however so do other roles. If you as the tank decide to point a cleave at me, the healer - well then I can tell you that things are going to go bad very quickly. So YOU have quite a bit of responsibility. Somehow, no one worries that (for example) paladins need to keep up various rotations while simultaneously positioning the boss, performing a tank swap, rotating CDs, perhaps using healing skills, using cover, etc. We aren't missing Yoshi's point. We are not stupid. we disagree.

Finally, your "talking with your healers" just comes off as being rather condescending, even if was well-intended. We don't need a mouthpiece, playing a support job should not be construed as being infantile, there are hundreds of posts from healer mains. The "just do ultimate" really was extremely dismissive, I really don't want to be rude, but no other class/jobs gets that attitude.

[Ixon]

[IMG] snip

I never understood why people look at the most optimal, best of the best, 99%-100%, and try to say that's the standard. Like c'mon. 99% of you are not even at that level anyway. Where they do miniscule amounts as healing as to barely squeak by to do the most DPS. That's not MOST players. Could you even imagine how awful the game would be for most if it was balanced for the 99%? Healers could have more DPS and healing options, yes. But to show the 100th percentile parse and say "See!? SEE!?" is so much of a hyperbole it distracts from meaningful conversation.