Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

I don’t have it on hand. If you’re interested im sure you’d be able to find it. Doesn’t really denounce what i said either way lol

Fair, just figured I’d ask lol

[KizuyaKatogami]

Fair, just figured I’d ask lol

If it helps i know it was said during the recent qna/LL.

[Kozh]

Guess we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it

Guess it's actually Venat who can't accept reality then.. o3o

I can’t roll my eyes hard enough.

Now you know how people feel when debating with you.

Considering I’m arguing against an equivalence I feel you’re not understanding what I’m trying to say.

On the contrary, I think you're the one who either don't understand what I'm saying, or trying to ignore it.

Why does everyone think the Ironworks crew expected 100% to perish? It was a possibility sure, but not a certainty, and it definitely wasn’t something they desired or preferred.

Because they did expect it themselves? Even g'raha did. When the tower vanished, "are we going to disappear" is what's on their mind. And when nothing happened, they're worried that g'raha failed his mission. Ofc it's not something they desired, but it's still what they know and willingly accept when trying to undo the calamity.

Considering we know from the story itself that they joined with Midgardsormr to craft a brighter future despite not knowing if their plan worked or not, I’m gonna say you didn’t actually read the story.

By the Twelve.... it's like you skip what I said. Do you know what "IF" is? I know they get help from midgarsormr, but this is after the fact that the timeline is split and they don't have any means to reverse time since the technology is inside the Tower. That's when they finally start facing the reality they're in.

Honestly, if even people on Reddit understand and agree with my point, idk how else should I explain it to you.

How are they helping the next generation by sacrificing it?

Might sound cold, but next generation doesn't stop at your child generation /shrug.

Once again, we’re back to using chickens to sacrifice Zodiark!

I don't see the devs confirmation, so... But anyway, even if they use their younglings, my point still stand. You know, about how the 8UC Ironworks did the same as the Ancients basically.

Yeah, that second one is the reason I believe she spared him. We’re on the same page.

And how does it's gonna happen if the rejoining doesn't happen? Or if emet didn't become the sundered's enemy?

Onto the the rest; the issue I believe that Venat faced was that after the Sundering and after Hydaelyns inevitable death, there would exist no Unsundered to possibly assist those sent to Ultima Thule. While this wasn’t absolutely necessary or needed, having Emet or Hythlo join those sent to fight Meteion would be a clear benefit, but not absolutely and thus worth leaving to chance (or in other words “leaving room for this outcome”).

Because I just don’t think that was her intention. It doesn’t match her statements both in Elpis and afterwards, and it doesn’t make sense given her actions previously. If her intent was to follow the description of events we gave her, then she wouldn’t just need Emet to be spared, but Lahabrea and Elidibus too. Not only that, but her plan would fail from the start if they didn’t manage to escape, which again given it was described by Yoshi P as a gamble it would mean this plan is reliant on a gamble and two coincidences just to get off the ground. On top of that, her later efforts to halt the Rejoinings would constantly run the risk of splitting the timeline, which again would mean failure. Thus, with all of this in mind, I think there’s lot of chances for failure in that plan, a plan that also goes against her stated beliefs, and thus I don’t personally think it makes sense to believe that was her intention. The description I’m arguing for doesn’t run into these problems and remains consistent with both her decisions and stated beliefs.

Why would she think the unsundered can help us battling pure dynamis being.

I never say rejoining is her primary intention, nor if she let it happen "just because lulz". Though I do have to say it match with her ideology where she saw sundering and all that come with it. including rejoining, as a trial to strengthen mankind. But I'm sure you will disagree with it right?
Anyway, again, she doesn't know the detail of the future. Hence why every action she took can be described as "gamble". Them being a "gamble" doesn't mean that she doesn't want that to happen. I think it's pretty clear that while pre-final days Venat might not want to do sundering, once she failed to convince her people, she fully committed to sundering and rejoining plan, because that would be the surest way to lead her to us. I mean, if we want to bring up music lyric as evidence, I'd say Flow would explain it enough. As for halting rejoinings, I have two explanations.

First, her whole "kill all the Acians and prevent rejoinings" thing are something crucial since 2.0. Way, way before EW is even conceived. To retcon these things would be impossible. The best they can do is having the Watcher to ""admit"" that hydaelyn lied to us back in HW. Should they tried to, people would notice. You gave the boat and Krile scene where she talk how she failed to save the shards, but keep in mind that this happens before we reach Elpis. Just like how I said before that the Watcher said nothing about meteion, I will say that the same excuse can be applied here. That is: the truth about venat, final days, reason of sundering (dynamis and meteion), time travel, are a surprise the devs don't want the players to caught on before it's intended.

Second, and this is more in-game excuse. Rejoinings not only completed Zodiark, but also caused Her to grow weaker. She still needed her strength to save us and pull us to the aetherial sea (or whatever place we met her and minfilia a couple of times). On the boat scene, after saying she failed preventing rejoinings, her main concern about it is them sapping her strength. Besides, if she didn't gave the sundered enough power to try and slow down the rejoinings, it would be completed way too early before the WoL come into existence (aka timeline get screwed).

And yeah, her plan has a very high chance of failure, and even the "let WoL deal with it" is basically just her putting all eggs in one basket. That's why people caller her out.

Kozh… you aren’t seriously arguing that the statement “she definitely made sure the timeline played out that way” is the same as “this is another interpretation”, an interpretation he explicitly says he doesn’t hold or agree with. You aren’t seriously pretending that’s what that says right?

Oh I am. Because "venat made sure the timeline stay" isn't conflicted with "past and present were part of the same timeline". Because if we ask "how is it the same"? Then "Venat made sure it does" can be the answer. See how "past and present were part on the same timeline" doesn't explain anything about "what happened", only that yes, it's a timeloop.

Go ahead and show me the quote where he explicitly says he doesn't agree with it.

How magnanimous of you, O Great Kozh.

?????? I wasn't even trying to be sarcastic, what in the ever living fuck???

[EaraGrace]

Because they did expect it themselves? Even g'raha did...

So you agree then that they aren’t doing this for their own benefit unlike the Ancients.

By the Twelve.... it's like you skip what I said. Do you know what "IF" is? I know they get help from midgarsormr, but this is after the fact that the timeline is split and they don't have any means to reverse time since the technology is inside the Tower. That's when they finally start facing the reality they're in.

Which would be exactly what she desires no? Offering a better future for others and then committing to fighting for tomorrow? Do I wish they also had that in mind before the Crystal Tower left? Sure. But the lesson to gain from it wasn’t to not try to make a better world for others, but to do so and fight for your own future as well.

Might sound cold, but next generation doesn't stop at your child generation /shrug.

Yeah they just had to sacrifice their children, it totally needed to happen. It’s not like they were doing so only out of selfish desire to avoid suffering at the cost of other human lives.

I don't see the devs confirmation, so... But anyway, even if they use their younglings, my point still stand. You know, about how the 8UC Ironworks did the same as the Ancients basically.

Wait, I’m sorry where did the Ironworks crew stand to benefit from succeeding in changing the timeline? Tell me exactly what those individuals would have gained.

They wouldn’t, they’d either be dead or left adrift.

And how does it's gonna happen if the rejoining doesn't happen? Or if emet didn't become the sundered's enemy?

Lacking Lahabrea or Elidibus at his side, Emets next steps are a lot less set in stone. Perhaps Venat would have sought him out as the two last Unsundered (were literally shown he can be practical and swap positions when he needs to in Elpis). Or if he still tries to enact the Ardor there’d be only one Unsundered to contend with and thus his death/regaining memories would happen sooner and much more simply. Either way, Hydaelyn would gain an ally and the two could work together to prepare the Sundered.

Why would she think the unsundered can help us battling pure dynamis being.

Exactly what we would find in Ultima Thule was unknown to everyone, so the point is to have as many potential cards as possible within the limitations of the situation. Having Emet and Hythlos spirits allowed us to reach Meteion and open the way forward where we couldn’t before. As Emet says Venat “allowed for this outcome.”

I never say rejoining is her primary intention…

I disagree with it because I don’t think her statements or actions match with that idea. Take this line for example.



Now let’s put our writing caps on for a moment. If my intention is for Hydaelyn to work to bring about the WoL by allowing and aiding in the Ardor, what would this line mean? After all, if the goal is to make sure the timelines remain together then Hydaelyn hasn’t actually failed, at all, ever, at any point. She’s succeeded, despite the odds against Her. So how do we explain this?

We can’t, with that plan in mind.

Anyway, again, she doesn't know the detail of the future. Hence why every action she took can be described as "gamble"…

First, her whole "kill all the Acians and prevent rejoinings" thing are something crucial since 2.0. Way, way before EW is even conceived...

Not knowing the future creates more than a gamble, it makes every decision, including the decision not to act, a potential timeline failing moment. The risk gets exponentially higher with every event, every intervention, which makes her efforts to intervene in the Rejoinings unwise at best and downright playing in traffic levels of risk at worst. Committing to the Rejoinings would work, if she knew the events that needed to occur to cause them at the right time. Not knowing that, and believing the timeline is malleable, means one wrong call in one era with regards to one actor results in the end of all things.

And right, it’s clear that from a meta perspective they didn’t plan this out all in advance 10 years ago. The problem however is that the writers went to great lengths to connect and fit the revelations in Endwalker to previous lore. Not with 100% success of course, but it’s clear they made an effort. The convo with the Watcher is evidence of that, as that’s clearly the writers addressing discontinuity with an additive retcon.

I will however point out that the line above that I posted happens after Elpis.

Second, and this is more in-game excuse. Rejoinings not only completed Zodiark, but also caused Her to grow weaker. She still needed her strength to save us and pull us to the aetherial sea (or whatever place we met her and minfilia a couple of times). On the boat scene, after saying she failed preventing rejoinings, her main concern about it is them sapping her strength. Besides, if she didn't gave the sundered enough power to try and slow down the rejoinings, it would be completed way too early before the WoL come into existence (aka timeline get screwed).

Agreed! There’s a very real cost to her power, one that runs dangerously close to depleting her entirely. Which makes it even more baffling that she would waste strength offering crystals or blessing to those who she would believe are doomed. Doing so would be a needless waste of resources in this case and potentially lead to a disaster. Unless of course she was making a real effort to stop the Rejoinings, but was forced to ration her strength.

And yeah, her plan has a very high chance of failure, and even the "let WoL deal with it" is basically just her putting all eggs in one basket. That's why people caller her out.

Perhaps our disagreement comes down to our read of Venat as a person then. I don’t see her committing to such a risky scheme when other alternatives exist. The Sundering was a Hail Mary, relying on the Rejoinings after that would stretch possibility.

Oh I am. Because "venat made sure the timeline stay" isn't conflicted with "past and present were part of the same timeline". Because if we ask "how is it the same"? Then "Venat made sure it does" can be the answer. See how "past and present were part on the same timeline" doesn't explain anything about "what happened", only that yes, it's a timeloop.

Why did he say “another interpretation” Kozh? Why distinguish between the two at all. Saying they can be compatible doesn’t answer that. If he thinks they are the same, why make the distinction.

Go ahead and show me the quote where he explicitly says he doesn't agree with it.

“My interpretation” vs “another interpretation” means he believes one and not the other. This is how language works.

?????? I wasn't even trying to be sarcastic, what in the ever living fuck???

Oh I know.

But I certainly was being sarcastic.

[Erendis]

This part of the discussion is over whether that’s the case or not. I suggest you read the full response Yoshi P gave to understand what was said. Here’s a transcript from the Reddit discord.

Oh, who finished the discussion? Anyway, Yoshida's lore questions responses were really lackluster even though he claimed he consulted about them with Oda...

[KageTokage]

Honestly, the more this discussion goes on, the more convinced I feel that there's literally no way they could've made the causal loop work out in a way that feels completely logical and satisfying.

[MikkoAkure]

Honestly, the more this discussion goes on, the more convinced I feel that there's literally no way they could've made the causal loop work out in a way that feels completely logical and satisfying.

It’s really difficult to pull off and requires you to have intended it from the very beginning. Considering this is a 10-year-old MMO where each expansion is pretty much just done one at a time with any foreshadowing done retroactively, it was never going to fully work out.

[Lyth]

From a narrative standpoint, time travel can be tremendously fun, but it also tends not to stand up very well to scrutiny when you have people trying to nitpick all the details.

Alternatively, it could be an unstable time loop. Where the loop is always happening but events aren't necessarily the same every time. In that case the timeline we experience may just be one of countless iterations of events.

This isn't a 'Groundhog Day Loop'. You don't experience it recursively because you still travel back to the future at the end of Elpis. The word 'loop' here refers to the causality in the story, in that the effect precedes the cause due to the effect of time travel. Most events can still be explained in terms of standard cause and effect, with Argos being a notable exception.

I've said this before. It's a cute storytelling device, but it also introduces other philosophical problems if you think about it. If the effect precedes the cause due to time travel, then you're introducing the idea of predestination to an event. And then you run into issues with the Eighth Umbral Calamity timeline's existence, because how are you predestined to travel back in time if you're dead? The workaround to this lies in the line 'the forming of a conjunction between the timelines', implying that successfully surviving to Endwalker set a 'flag' or created the necessary conditions for this loop to be allowed to form, but it's still a bit of a soft answer. Either way, I can see why Yoshi-p left this part up to our imagination, because that sticking point where the real controversy lies.

[EaraGrace]

Oh, who finished the discussion? Anyway, Yoshida's lore questions responses were really lackluster even though he claimed he consulted about them with Oda...

You misunderstood me. I’m saying it’s over as in its on the subject of, not that it’s complete.

Ex: “We’re going over the book we read last night” vs “ Our partnership is over.”

[Adeacia]

I've said this before. It's a cute storytelling device, but it also introduces other philosophical problems if you think about it. If the effect precedes the cause due to time travel, then you're introducing the idea of predestination to an event.

This is why I decided to avoid time travel in my own writing. The only kind that makes sense is where the present you live in is the altered one created by you going back in time to change it. Though that means everything was predestined, which is something I very much want to avoid.

The Shadowbringers time travel results in: come from a bad future to change the past, you do so, meaning said bad future never happened which means you never went back in time to change it, so then it did happen.

Regardless of what you do, time travel results in a mess of paradoxes.