Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

What is the Meta message of the story?

To live is to suffer, death is the only certainty and yet life is still worth fighting for.

While i may not exactly regard said themes or textual parts as “meta” myself, the themes along the lines of suffering, learning to deal with loss, moving forward instead of being tied to the past etc. These have all been contradicted by things like the scions suffering level being incredibly low,

Subjective. I think four expansions of war and death enough.

them being brought back at the end of UT, the 8UC timeline where they were willing to sacrifice the entire timeline to bring the wol back etc etc.

Bringing the Scions back is the proof that life is not inevitably hopeless or cruel. You’ve talked at length in the past how you dislike the Scions, maybe you’re just frustrated they’re not dead? And the 8th UC timeline has its own nuances and intricacies that you seem happy to ignore.

Look if you don’t think it earned that theme fine, but recognize this comes down to personal taste and is not an objective judgement of the story.

[Kozh]

Sorry I took so long to reply. Got hit by "failed to confirm session key" after accidentally log out. Dumb forum.

And before it comes I already know the response will be “oh well that just makes up for everything.” But that’s not the point!

Uh that's one of the point when people's criticism of venat is how she's more of "the bigger picture" person. And do you really think the sundered isn't capable of looking away from the reality? Like how the 8UC timeline didn't? Or the general Eorzean/hydaelyn population who the game conveniently left out during final days? She deemed the whole sundered able to defeat despair when the sample population is just 8 people (with plot armor) plus, give or take, sharlayan people and some refugees.

I don’t think the Plenty is a caricature, nor do I think the way the 1st or 2nd worlds were shown to be removed from reality...

Ok meteion.

They literally do though, they want everything back the way it was. The people, the world, the lack of fear, all of it....

Still isn't the same as moving back in time to erase that reality of final days.

The difference is clear, and it’s why this example is unimaginably frustrating.

I assure you I have double the amount of frustration when you refuse to see how those two acts are basically the same, if not, worse. Whether or not it's for benefit of self or others, it doesn't matter because the main poin of this argument is if the sundered had the means to turn away from reality. I mean, if the third sacrifice is to sacrifice the surviving Ancients to bring back those who were gone, you probably still say that they turn away from despair right? On top of that, like I said before, what the Ironworks did do benefit them as a whole race and how they also willing to potentially sacrifice those who opposed their plan (or even unaware of).

Oh don’t Kozh, this is a bad attempt to turn your mocking around on me. What did I cherry pick exactly? Post the whole quote and we’ll pick it apart if you’re confident..

I mean, if you don't want people to mock you, then don't do that yourself in the first place?

And no thanks, there's no way I dig around your posts from weeks ago, they're scattered around different posts and even forums. But what you write here is one example. Apparently you are so ready to say "see, yoshi-p said the Plenty is what the Ancients gonna be!!!, but then when it comes to discussion about how venat do sundering with the rejoining in mind, you deny it vehemently. Even though Yoshida also said that" venat tried hard to keep the timeline in place" and "she deliberately spare emet selch". It doesn't take a genius to understand that those two actions means she needed him to do rejoining so the WoL would exist.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don’t necessarily believe the Scions were required to suffer a lot for the sake of “themes”. Unless you just don’t like them. Plus anyone who thought they weren’t coming back at the end hasn’t been paying attention to the extremely saccharine and overall general overly positive vibes of the game’s story all the way back to ARR. There was no way they were going to end the entire decade’s worth of story on a bittersweet note.

You also seem hung up on one line from a short side story not present in the game itself about a scenario that was only a possibility and didn’t even come to pass. And the reason the WoL had to come back wasn’t specifically to “save the hero” it was because that moment led to a chain reaction that would eventually lead to the end of all of the worlds and the full Rejoining.



The missing memories part from the Calamity is referenced and explained in the Endwalker MSQ. Something to do with a lot of aether being released that is similar to the type of aether memories are made of and washing it all out, similar to the memory block magic the Forum members had.

Ah yes nothing more positive than your entire base being massacred, having to carry their bodies onto a cart yourself, learning about tempering and how there was no hope for them, watching them be executed, people drinking alien blood and turning into monsters massacring their own kind, the first dungeon of the game being full of sex slaves...need i go on? The game only got incredibly positive around shb. You're free to believe what you wish, but when a character is painted as a hero for preaching about how everyone needs to suffer, but then the heroes of the story get everything handed to them and hardly ever have to suffer...sorry it all rings a bit hollow. Especially when you see groups of people who actually know and had to deal with major suffering, and are just told to move on, something yes, that isnt present in the other timeline. It doesnt matter if its a single line or whatever you want to handwave it as. Genocide is genocide right? Thats what people were saying when the ascians were involved. But now when its the protagonists or crystal mom, we're going through hoops to defend it, how interesting.Also the rejoinings wouldnt lead to the end of all worlds but im sure you already know that.

To live is to suffer, death is the only certainty and yet life is still worth fighting for.



Subjective. I think four expansions of war and death enough.



Bringing the Scions back is the proof that life is not inevitably hopeless or cruel. You’ve talked at length in the past how you dislike the Scions, maybe you’re just frustrated they’re not dead? And the 8th UC timeline has its own nuances and intricacies that you seem happy to ignore.

Look if you don’t think it earned that theme fine, but recognize this comes down to personal taste and is not an objective judgement of the story.

Death doesnt seem very certain if your name is Graha or Yshtola, who have both cheated death, one countless times. Again Eara, i'd really rather you not insinuate things out of nowhere.Life is not inevitably hopeless or cruel?Please try telling that to the Garleans who were thrown out of their homes and mass murdered.Tell that to the Kobolds who were invaded and massacred to have their land stolen. Tell it to Ancients who only seeked the betterment of their people and the star and had their very lives ripped apart.I'll be honest, i wasnt so ignorant as to think all of the scions would be dead. However, this is an expansion that has preached non-stop about loss,sacrifice or what have you. Why is it then that only side npcs or antagonists have this applied to them? Why are the protagonists allowed to cheat death or look to the past to keep themselves alive. The scions didnt have to lose anything this expansion. They went on lunch dates and had tea while the other half of the world was on fire.

[Kordarion]

Ah yes nothing more positive than your entire base being massacred, having to carry their bodies onto a cart yourself, learning about tempering and how there was no hope for them, watching them be executed, people drinking alien blood and turning into monsters massacring their own kind, the first dungeon of the game being full of sex slaves...need i go on? The game only got incredibly positive around shb.

How about uniting Eorzea against the Garlean threat in ARR? Separating Lahabrea from Thancred when all evidence pointed to killing Thancred being the only way to exorcise Lahabrea? Helping the Doman refugees to rebuild and thrive? Convincing Ysale and Estinien to stop their individual and opposed plans for a genocidal end to the Dragonsong war? Ending the Dragonsong war in a manner that allows Dravanians and Ishgardians to peacefully coexist? Reigniting Hraesvalger's faith in mankind? Ending Yotsuyu's rein of bloodshed in Doma? Helping Nanamo to get Ul'dah behind rebuilding Ala Migho? Fighting colonialism/exploitation of native peoples in the New World in the Blue mage quests? How about the fact that we always stop whatever catastrophe is throw our way? Anything Hildebrand is a moment of positivity and levity also.

The point is there is plenty of feel good, we saved the world happy ending stuff pre-shadowbringers, you don't even have to look that hard to find them.

Edit: I'm also sure I've seen you praise Shb for being morally grey where Endwalker is not, and yet here you're saying it was a positive ending based expansion? Those two positions seem to cancel each other out, how can it be morally grey if it focuses on positive ends for its stories?

tbf I could be confusing someone else's comments with your past ones.

[EaraGrace]

Uh that's one of the point when people's criticism of venat is how she's more of "the bigger picture" person. And do you really think the sundered isn't capable of looking away from the reality? Like how the 8UC timeline didn't? Or the general Eorzean/hydaelyn population who the game conveniently left out during final days? She deemed the whole sundered able to defeat despair when the sample population is just 8 people (with plot armor) plus, give or take, sharlayan people and some refugees.

I think they’re certainly capable of doing so yet I think, like Venat, that the Sundered were less able to do so to the reality of their circumstances. The imperfections of life are more apparent when you have to grow your own food.

Ok meteion.

Good argument.

Still isn't the same as moving back in time to erase that reality of final days.

You’re right it does not involve time travel. If that’s your point then you are correct and I’m gonna assume we agree that they wanted everything back to the way it was.

I assure you I have double the amount of frustration when you refuse to see how those two acts are basically the same, if not, worse. Whether or not it's for benefit of self or others, it doesn't matter because the main poin of this argument is if the sundered had the means to turn away from reality.

See you’re trying to force equivalence. Exactly how is it turning away from reality to desire another future for people who aren’t you? There was no ending to their actions that would actively undo their present circumstance, at best it would mean another wouldn’t have to suffer and no change in circumstances for you/at worst it mean the end of your timeline. They looked at the world as it was and said, “let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain.” Nothing is forgotten or left behind, and no one is turning away from reality. Unlike the Ancients.

I mean, if the third sacrifice is to sacrifice the surviving Ancients to bring back those who were gone, you probably still say that they turn away from despair right? On top of that, like I said before, what the Ironworks did do benefit them as a whole race and how they also willing to potentially sacrifice those who opposed their plan (or even unaware of).

The Ancients were not sacrificing the surviving ones first off. They were sacrificing the life that would spring up post Final Days. That’s about the closest it gets to a moral equivalence, that both involved making sacrifices for others. The major distinction, and one I would hope you’d agree with, is that one is a theoretical risk that was only speculated about resulting from changing the timeline and would also mean your death as well, the other is directly sacrificing others for your own benefit.

I mean, if you don't want people to mock you, then don't do that yourself in the first place?

And no thanks, there's no way I dig around your posts from weeks ago, they're scattered around different posts and even forums. But what you write here is one example. Apparently you are so ready to say "see, yoshi-p said the Plenty is what the Ancients gonna be!!!, but then when it comes to discussion about how venat do sundering with the rejoining in mind, you deny it vehemently.

…because one is directly stated and the other is an assumption? I’m sorry but how could she be working with the rejoining in mind if her intent was to save Emet, and Lahabrea/Elidibus “happened to be nearby.” That’s not intent that’s an accident.

Even though Yoshida also said that" venat tried hard to keep the timeline in place"

He didn’t say that and you know it Kozh, you are lying.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. What happened?

A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one. In my personal interpretation however is that the timelines were always the same. Another interpretation you can have is that maybe Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure the timeline didn’t go awry. Therefore the Warrior of Light was always acting in accordance with this plan of Venat so the timeline that we are aware of didn’t change when we went back to the affected..

and "she deliberately spare emet selch". It doesn't take a genius to understand that those two actions means she needed him to do rejoining so the WoL would exist.

I forget how many Unsundered were needed for the Rejoinings in our timeline?

Ah yes nothing more positive than your entire base being massacred, having to carry their bodies onto a cart yourself, learning about tempering and how there was no hope for them, watching them be executed, people drinking alien blood and turning into monsters massacring their own kind, the first dungeon of the game being full of sex slaves...need i go on? The game only got incredibly positive around shb.

[MikkoAkure]

Ah yes nothing more positive than your entire base being massacred, having to carry their bodies onto a cart yourself, learning about tempering and how there was no hope for them, watching them be executed, people drinking alien blood and turning into monsters massacring their own kind, the first dungeon of the game being full of sex slaves...need i go on? The game only got incredibly positive around shb.

Almost every single piece of media, let alone RPGs or the Final Fantasy series has moments where bad stuff happens, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a plot. Almost every story at its base is about the main characters overcoming the hardships and earning a better future.

If you take a nihilist approach to the game, then all you see is the bad things. Literally the whole point of the Scions is a group of people who are waaaaay too cheerful, noble, positive, and optimistic about the world and even after a large number were killed, they move on instead of losing themselves to grief like they would in a lot of other media. They rebuild themselves, beat the bad guys, and continue on to keep being good for no reward. Their attitude is so sickeningly sweet and stereotypical for a group of protagonists that it takes me out of it sometimes.

I don't see FFXIV as a "grimdark" series like Witcher, Berserk, A Song of Ice and Fire, etc. where it's a long series of bad things happening to everyone for almost no reason except to beat the audience with terrible events happening to people to the point where they become numb. The difference is that FFXIV doesn't dwell on those bad things and the characters overcome it with a stereotypical "shounen" gung-ho-ness. At the end of the day in every X.0 and X.3 patch, the heroes of FFXIV, battered and bruised, always come out smiling to celebrating NPCs and acknowledge those who died in the events leading up to it but then turn it onto having hopes for the future. All of it to the fanfare of the Final Fantasy main theme as credits roll.

The whole theme of the game is retroactively very obvious even when you go back to the ending of 2.0.

Merlwyb:

No victory, however sweet, can wash away our bitter sorrows. No triumph can reclaim those we lost. Yet do not presume you honor them by dwelling on the past. It was not the past they fought for. You would repay their sacrifice by looking to the future.

Also the rejoinings wouldnt lead to the end of all worlds but im sure you already know that.

All of the remaining Shards as well as the Source would end. I think that counts as the end of their worlds, unless you are an Ancient who has already been sacrificed to Zodiark or a Convocation member, all of whom are already dead. The whole reason Rejoinings are bad is "returning life to those who have already passed, in exchange for those who are currently living across many worlds", which contradicts what I believe the theme of the game is about.

How do you think Hythlodeus would react if he found out that his friends spent 12000 years killing millions of people just to bring him and the others back when they already sacrificed themselves? Not for Amaurot, but for the Star. Elpis hammers in how much they care about the Star and the cycle of life in general. To bring them back is a slap in the face of their sacrifice. Do you think they did it with the full expectation they would be brought back to life and everything would be hunky-dory like none of that ever happened?

[sidurgu-12]

All of the remaining Shards as well as the Source would end. I think that counts as the end of their worlds, unless you are an Ancient who has already been sacrificed to Zodiark or a Convocation member, all of whom are already dead. The whole reason Rejoinings are bad is "returning life to those who have already passed, in exchange for those who are currently living across many worlds", which contradicts what I believe the theme of the game is about.

How do you think Hythlodeus would react if he found out that his friends spent 12000 years killing millions of people just to bring him and the others back when they already sacrificed themselves? Not for Amaurot, but for the Star. Elpis hammers in how much they care about the Star and the cycle of life in general. To bring them back is a slap in the face of their sacrifice. Do you think they did it with the full expectation they would be brought back to life and everything would be hunky-dory like none of that ever happened?

we already have pre sundering emets reaction and it was anger and denial. and to me that was one of the most important parts in elpis because it shows how desperate (and later unhinged) they became. though given venats flashback im guessing hythlo would be more sad than angry.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

My point is it takes away from any sense of threat or severity of the plot. It especially doesn’t help when the writing itself has to contradict, go through hoops, and create plot holes just for certain characters to live, that’s detrimental to the writing. It also doesn’t help when one of the main devs continues to prattle on about “no one is safe, just because some of the scions are locked behind side quests doesn’t mean they’re safe,” but then literally nothing ever comes from that. The story feels incredibly one sided, only the protagonists are allowed to bend the rules, but when the antagonists do the same they’re apparently in the wrong for it.As far as rpg’s go, there’s numerous rpg’s and even ff games in the series where things stay dark or important characters die(something 14 has lacked).

As for the rejoinings my point was there would still be A world left, just not one with the sundered. None of that is very relevant though, as we know how much the 12,000 years changed Emet and the ascians. They wouldn’t have had to endure that if someone had just told the truth.

Ah yes the one scene everyone falls back on. Yes it was a spooky and dark scene, but
1.)It’s happening to an npc we’ve known for about 10 minutes and it pretty few and far between.
2.)Compared to the back to back horror in ARR this isn’t really much.

Edit: I'm also sure I've seen you praise Shb for being morally grey where Endwalker is not, and yet here you're saying it was a positive ending based expansion? Those two positions seem to cancel each other out, how can it be morally grey if it focuses on positive ends for its stories?

tbf I could be confusing someone else's comments with your past ones.

While ShB is morally grey, it was a fairy positive ending based expansion. After kill Emet-Selch we have Alphinaud cheering us on for doing so. Fast forward a bit to 5.3 after we kill Elidibus, they just go and have some cringy cutscene of doing battle poses with their new outfits… Positive for me no. Positive for others and the protagonists yes.

My point is, the other expansions at least had *Consequences*. ARE had the waking sands massacre, the mass tempering, The iconic banquet etc. HW had Haurchefant,Ysayle,Papalymo lost to us. Shinryu as a threat at the end of HW. Now SB did have some moments like that i will say, what with Yotsuyu’s past and the doman flooding.But to just win such…incredible events with literally 0 consequences doesn’t sit right with me. It just makes the cast feel perfect and untouchable and like the devs are too afraid to actually give consequences anymore. It makes the story hard to engage in because of moments like UT where you know for a fact they aren’t going to die lmao. It takes away from that entire engagement.

[Jandor]

2.)Compared to the back to back horror in ARR this isn’t really much.

Back to back horror? I think we played different ARR's

The story had some dark moments, and it definitely had some pretty dark world-building going on in the background, but it was hardly back to back horror.
Darker than later installments? Sure, I could agree with that, but lets not oversell it, full blown dark fantasy it was not.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Back to back horror? I think we played different ARR's

It’s certainly subjective in the end. Personally i found it felt like one bad thing to the next between sastasha, then tam tara with edda’s party, then learning about tempering and how there was no hope for those people, then learning of the Kobolds, then the waking sands massacre etc etc.