Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[EaraGrace]

The only thing supporting this is Yshtola's hypothesis, which as we've seen time and time again, is usually incorrect. We dont even know if Elidibus had the chance to mediate with either group is my point. Perhaps by the time he was able to the sundering was already happening.

We're talking pre-sundering here maam. He wasnt an ascian at that point lol. People really need to learn to differentiate the terms.

I’d actually say she’s rarely incorrect, and more often than not plays the role of “explainer for the audience.” Not to mention Elidibus himself seemed to tacitly confirm her suspicions, and then there’s him mindlessly wandering up to us compelled by the desire for salvation… I think it’s clear what occurred.

And considering he was hanging out with Emet when the Sundering occurred, and Venats group only decided to move forward with their plan after the Convocation decided to go ahead with the third sacrifice, he definitely did have time to mediate. The fact that those who reached out to the Convocation didn’t feel heard doesn’t make it sound like it was going well however.

I could also do without the snark, friend.

[sidurgu-12]

woo, we just reached 50.

[Rannie]

woo, we just reached 50.

Still not as many pages as the tales from the duty finder they closed =P

[sidurgu-12]

Still not as many pages as the tales from the duty finder they closed =P

given its about the duty finder im kind of scared to ask how many it had lol.

[Rannie]

given its about the duty finder im kind of scared to ask how many it had lol.

Let's just say enough pages to cause general discussion to have issues loading

[Cleretic]

I’d actually say she’s rarely incorrect, and more often than not plays the role of “explainer for the audience.” Not to mention Elidibus himself seemed to tacitly confirm her suspicions, and then there’s him mindlessly wandering up to us compelled by the desire for salvation… I think it’s clear what occurred.

And considering he was hanging out with Emet when the Sundering occurred, and Venats group only decided to move forward with their plan after the Convocation decided to go ahead with the third sacrifice, he definitely did have time to mediate. The fact that those who reached out to the Convocation didn’t feel heard doesn’t make it sound like it was going well however.

I could also do without the snark, friend.

Y'shtola is part of a general lineup of 'smart people we're meant to trust about intellectual subjects', along with Urianger, G'raha Tia, and in some subjects Emet-Selch. Basically, the Masters of Infodump. I don't think she was ever wrong about anything that wasn't later found out to be a widespread misconception in the first place until she assumed that a Blasphemy's soul was just gone, and even that was a perfectly reasonable misunderstanding. Her eyeballing of Elidibus has no clear false assumptions in it, and Y'shtola herself hadn't made false assumptions at that point, so we can assume her read on the guy's weird nature to be largely accurate.

I wouldn't say that to be a negative about any of those characters, for what it's worth, those sorts of people are important for building a believable setting. We're not gonna crack out an aetherology textbook, and we aren't reading a book with a helpful narrator, so Y'shtola tells us things we can assume to be facts. The only curveball there is Emet-Selch; being that he's both a font of infodumps and had a confirmed biased and incomplete view of what he was talking about, he was in an odd position where we had to trust him to be both telling the truth and leaving out or coloring details, either willingly or unknowingly.

[SpectrePhantasia]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place

With the exception of Azem, (for a reason we do not know) next to no one disagreed with summoning Zodiark. Not even Venat discounts the fact that using him was essentially the only thing that the Ancients could do to survive, and continued to be the only reason people were surviving for the next 12,000 years. Elidibus made that choice and took that burden when the Ancients as a people had unanimously decided upon that course, before conflicts had ever arisen in the first place. There was nothing to 'agree' with, it was just the right thing to do. I fail to see how taking up the mantle of Zodiark when he was inarguably their only option belies some inherent bias on his part. I also don't think looking at Elidibus the way he is when their circumstances are completely different several millennia later helps to gleam how he would have acted then.

I also take issue with the placement of Elidibus's emergence from Zodiark being this early on in the timeline, as is being speculated here. The novella offers no further clarity on that front than what we already had. Again, Emet-selch was not talking of specifically the Convocation in that passage, or if he was, it isn't made clear, so we can't know if when the Anamnesis scene occurred, Elidibus was even there yet or not. If it is the Convocation, why is there apprehension towards Zodiark in the first place? I thought they were tempered when he was summoned? In that case, why did Elidibus need to withdraw himself at all? Either the tempering doesn't matter, or this is not referring to only the Convocation. Or maybe they were tempered but only a little bit because their souls are so massive they're resistant, so they kind of but not really have their own will?

See there are just too many unknown variables to come to a conclusion anyone will be even halfway satisfied with. Zodiark's tempering, the proper timeline of events; we are left in the dark on all of it, when we really should not have been. I get leaving some things to the imagination, but at this point we are making entire headcanon scenarios out of the tiniest scraps. I don't think this avenue is really gonna lead anywhere.

[Absimiliard]

If it is the Convocation, why is there apprehension towards Zodiark in the first place? I thought they were tempered when he was summoned? In that case, why did Elidibus need to withdraw himself at all? Either the tempering doesn't matter, or this is not referring to only the Convocation. Or maybe they were tempered but only a little bit because their souls are so massive they're resistant, so they kind of but not really have their own will?

It's most likely the latter. Tempering didn't seem to affect Ancients to anywhere near the degree it does their modern-day fragments. On the other hand it could be that Zodiark simply didn't want to rob them of their free will. It's been shown that primals can elect to increase or decrease the effects of their tempering. I don't believe we have any way of knowing which of these turned out to be the case, but what little evidence we have seems to indicate the former over the latter.

One thing we can say for certain is that Emet-Selch, being the best example of an Ancient we have, had numerous instances of just wanting to walk away from the mission. He even tried to, and he would probably have stuck to that if his son hadn't died. Given that the effects of tempering don't lessen with time, it seems fairly reasonable to assume Zodiark had little if any actual control over him.

I feel we can't really use Lahabrea as a proper example since he was clearly off his rocker from the beginning and only got worse as time went on.

[Lauront]

I'd disagree with that characterisation of Lahabrea. Emet-Selch clearly related it to a decay that occurred over time, much as he had with Elidibus's memories:

I closed my eyes, letting out a measured breath, or what passed for one in the emptiness of the rift. He was right, of course. Lahabrea's boldness had only grown with the passing of ages─segueing inevitably into recklessness. Across many vessels and many worlds he blazed his trail, each mad leap forward leaving him that much more broken. Not satisfied with having brought about the Seventh Umbral Calamity, he labored needlessly to prolong it.

Was it his affinity for concepts of flame that made him so like the fire itself? From peerless Ifrita to that hopelessly immortal bird, his creations had burned bright and beautiful─as did he.

He should have known what becomes of the flame once all else is ash.

I opened my eyes to take in my brother's face, but the lips visible below his mask bore no expression. Would he never again show what he felt for us, as he once had so readily? Were those very sentiments long lost?

"What is it, Emet-Selch?"

"Nothing. I was only thinking how similar Lahabrea was to his creations."

"His creations?" I had little difficulty reading Elidibus's uncertainty this time. He couldn't remember. If his clenched fists were any indication, he shared my conclusion: yet another part of him had been lost. Ever since the day he had reappeared to us as the embodiment of "hope," time's tides had conspired to wash away what bits and pieces remained of the person he once was.

Then there is this from Yoshi:

11. Elidibus once described Lahabrea as "unique" after taking a long pause to choose his words. Did he, like Emet-Selch, have less favorable judgement of their colleague in recent years while being too polite to say so?
Oda: I believe that Elidibus's feelings towards his colleagues and the other Ascians' feelings towards each other will be explored in the story itself. The plot has been submitted to Yoshida and he is revising it. Once it gets the green light, we'll explore it more.

Yoshida: This has close ties with the upcoming story so there's not much we can say today. There was a sort of respect between them, I believe, and if you look at Emet-Selch’s dialogue, he said Lahabrea would wear himself down. Lahabrea was a workaholic, like me. He works a lot and can seem crazy. It has a similar meaning there.

From Pandaemonium:

Themis
Ah...I see. “She is no longer with us.” An expression to convey the end of a life.
I have known only the public face of Lahabrea. While he is lauded for his ability to maintain composure in the face of unnerving circumstances, I must admit that oft he comes across as...cold.

We've seen these sort of characters before, be it Fourchenault or Severian. Lahabrea is described as a genius at various points, so he is going to be eccentric, and as such, I'd caution against any such conclusions until they unveil his full story.

See there are just too many unknown variables to come to a conclusion anyone will be even halfway satisfied with. Zodiark's tempering, the proper timeline of events; we are left in the dark on all of it, when we really should not have been. I get leaving some things to the imagination, but at this point we are making entire headcanon scenarios out of the tiniest scraps. I don't think this avenue is really gonna lead anywhere.

Agreed - once more, we're asking to see these scenes to help wash away some of the lingering ambiguity. Trying to fill in gaps and then using this as an argument against demonstration of these scenes is just not going to convince any of us.

[Absimiliard]

Correct. Lahabrea grew worse with time. I have not and will not dispute that fact. You may notice that I even said as much my post a moment ago. That being said, at least a couple of the NPCs in Elpis do make reference to Lahabrea not exactly being the most sane individual. Even putting that aside, there's a whole prison filled with experiments that would be (and are stated to be) considered abominable even by Ancient standards. When I say off his rocker, I don't mean the raving lunatic we saw in ARR in Heavensward. I mean seemingly lacking in a properly functioning moral compass as relates to the rest of his people.

I maintain that Lahabrea's greatly affected mental faculties as of ARR/Heavensward mean we should not use him as an example of Zodiark's effect upon the Ancients, as his zealot-like devotion appears to stem mostly from his own damaged mind rather than any actual primal influence.