Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Lyth]

...

I'm rather partial to Hyth's character, going back to his original introduction in Shadowbringers. I think that he's probably the most grounded of the Ancients that we've met, probably owning in no small part to his lack of magical power. Yet you can't deny that even he talks about real problems from the safety of an ivory tower. When confronted with Hermes' fears about death and loss, instead of addressing the emotion on the table, he goes into an eloquent monologue on what a beautiful concept death is in their oh so wonderful society. Meteion is very deliberately inserted as an uncomfort-o-meter in that scene to show that the Amaurotians' responses aren't empathetic.

And you can't really blame them. They're sheltered godlings playing at being the ruling class of the planet. Addressing emotional distress in others isn't exactly their strong point.

It's extremely difficult to simultaneously extol Emet's actions in Shadowbringers and condemn Venat's actions in a way that is consistent. Especially after the scene in the Ocular where he specifically talks about murder as being merely a matter of perspective, and after he uses that same turn of phrase ('twisted, malformed creatures') to describe members of his own (or 'his body's own') Garlean family. I think he's a fantastic character, and thoroughly entertaining. But I wouldn't entertain any illusions about the long dead and abstract 'principles' behind his actions in Shadowbringers. You can find someone charismatic simultaneously and disagree with their actions and ideology.

If you do want to go with the Frey-themed interpretation on Emet and Venat (which I personally find interesting), it's worth remembering that Venat is an OG convocation member with a lifetime's worth more experience on the likes of Emet and his cronies. Not only does she successfully stage a coup to neuter the convocation's powers, but she also deliberately spares Emet and then spends the next twelve thousand years schooling him in the long game. Poor Emet couldn't catch a break, he outplayed and outmatched. By that interpretation, Emet, Venat, and the Convocation are all of a piece, and we're just lucky that our own interests aligned with the winning side.

Like Yoshi-p stated in the Q+A, it's interesting how different the Ancients are from us as a people in thinking and in empathy.

[Kozh]

How is it an ideology if it’s a fact?...

Brinne already fantastically explained what I thought as well about the whole "it's an ideologue". Besides, you also left the rest of the context, aren't you? Her view doesn't stop at "find joy in darkness", but also to "triumph over it", which as Brinne said, she view suffering as something to make someone stronger. Not only that how people see and deal with suffering is subjective, her ideologue also conveniently ignore needless suffering and could come across as elitist.

Speaking of facing suffering, if someone decided to avert their eyes from it and live in denial to keep them sane, what's our right to judge them?

And how is it a strawman. Explain exactly what makes it a strawman.

Because they only show us the end result and ask us to not think about it too much? The Dead Ends is pretty much moral messages condensed into 2-3 lines and crammed on a dungeon. Never mind the "how" and "what about". Not to mention that all the societies of those doomed worlds are just extreme caricature of all things we perceived as "bad". And I don't say this solely for defending the Ancients society, because if Yoshi-p said "yeah, the first/second world is definitely what the sundered world gonna be", then I would question it as well.

…because they were trying to undo every single change from the Final Days? They literally say “there must be a way to restore things to the way they were, to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.”

So rebuilding their lives is a bad thing now? Sure, they might have get back those who had been sacrificed for Zodiark, but their experience and knowledge of Final Days will still be there. It's not like they want to literally turn back time to erase those event.

The Ironworks group also explicitly say they don’t believe this will undo anything, only allow others to avoid suffering.

And yet it is for the benefit of the Sundered, just like the third sacrifice benefit the Ancients. If ShB follow the same timeloop rule as EW, those action would be seen the same as what the Ancients did when they ask to "reclaim their paradise", but even worse because they 100% erase those suffering and hardship from reality. Nobody to remember it and to learn from it. They're lucky it created new timeline, otherwise I think Hydaelyn would be very dissapointed in their choice.

And Kozh if you’re going to be bad faith then why bother having this conversation. Or are you just trolling “Venat Stan’s?”

You overused that term so much I started to think you're the one having bad faith argument. Could ask the same to you tbh. If you're going to be bad faith and cherry picking what yoshi-p said, why bother having this conversation? Or are you just trolling "the Ancient's stans"?

[Veloran]

Venat, her faction, and the developers disagree.

What Yoshida said was that Venat believed that it was the only way. Not that anything else was impossible.

[Alleluia]

- In other words, Venat has gained the information she was confused about lacking before about her future self’s mindset. Namely, the picture we paint of the Sundered future, and Meteion's report. She decides to allow the Final Days to happen as a test of the Ancients, in the hopes that they will respond in what she views as the correct way, reflecting her view of using suffering to grow one’s internal strength and the ability to find “everlasting light.”

Regarding the bolded bit, how does Venat "allow" the Final Days to happen? How could she have stopped them exactly? Meteion was out of reach, and even if they got to Ultima Thule somehow, they'd likely have failed confronting her. The only way to prevent the Final Days would be to summon Zodiark early and get him to reinforce the aether field around the planet before the nihilism wave hits. Which would involve sacrificing however many lives were necessary to have the power to do that, which in turn would require her to convince people it was necessary in the first place. She was the only one who remembered our story and the true nature of our existence, so good luck with that. Not to mention openly disclosing everything could very possibly have made Hermes an enemy again and he could have jacked up preparations for Zodiark's summoning in response.

Venat did not "allow" the Final Days to occur. She didn't have that control. When they lost Meteion and the other two lost their memories, she could theoretically have made everything public knowledge and tried to convince people the end was nigh. But that might have borne no fruit at all, or even possibly made surviving the Final Days (of Amaurot) more difficult, so it would be a gamble. But either way, the Final Days were happening.

[MikkoAkure]

What Yoshida said was that Venat believed that it was the only way. Not that anything else was impossible.

Aren't he and the writing staff who decides the plot though?

Considering it was the only possibility presented to us by the writers, and that it will most likely never be revisited, and that the writers themselves pushed hard on support for Venat, I think it's more likely that was the only option or at least the one most worthy of enacting at the time with the resources available. If there were any alternatives, you would think they would have at least hinted it to us instead of go full in with "Venat is our friend and we support her plan".

I don't understand what all the continued fuss is about anyway when it's all over and everyone involved is either dead or super dead.

[Brinne]

Regarding the bolded bit, how does Venat "allow" the Final Days to happen? How could she have stopped them exactly? Meteion was out of reach, and even if they got Ultima Thule somehow, they'd likely have failed confronting her. The only way to prevent the Final Days would be summon Zodiark early and get him to reinforce the aether field around the planet before the nihilism wave hits. Which would involve sacrificing however many lives were necessary to have the power tp do that, which in turn would require her to convince people it was necessary in the first place. She was the only one who remembered our story and the true nature of our existence, so good luck with that. Not to mention openly disclosing everything could very possibly have made Hermes an enemy again and he could have jacked up preparations for Zodiark's summoning in response.

Venat is obviously not the instigator. But her reaction to the knowledge that they are coming amounts not to "we can't allow this to happen" or "we have to save as many people as possible," it becomes "bring it on." Again, look at her quote - she comes to the conclusion that mankind must prove itself equal to Hermes's test (the Final Days) and, she thinks, that the way to do this is prove they deserve to exist in showing how they confront absolute despair. This necessitates exposing them to, you know, absolute despair. Once again, her way of thinking is not practical, it is abstract and ideological. She is not prioritizing the saving of lives. She is prioritizing her hope that mankind as a whole will be able to philosophically confront Meteion and win the argument against her.

Whether she practically "could" have stopped them or not, how difficult or viable it may have been, becomes irrelevant. A lot of the confusion about Venat becomes "why didn't she at least try any number of obvious options?" It falls into place when you realize she wasn't interested in trying to begin with. Her efforts to prepare for the Final Days did not amount to trying to stop them or reducing harm, it was, to her hope, psychologically toughening people up to the fact of being harmed, and seeing if they would follow her view of correct path following the exposure to despair. They did not. This made her very sad. If nothing else, she bets WoL could be "strong" enough to handle it, though! And then the game happened.

Aren't he and the writing staff who decides the plot though?

In context, Yoshida was answering a point-blank question about "was there really no other way than Venat's?" and he answered, with some hesitation and elaboration that "...well, she thought so," before pointing out that Venat's stance in judging her fellow man was probably as flawed as Emet's and Hermes's. It's actually pretty telling, I think. Venat did truly and sincerely believe there was no other way - if you can say something for her, it's that she is a True Believer to the bone, ready to throw down and put herself (and others) on the line for her ideals. She is also, however, kind of a judgmental jerk who isn't omniscient or more qualified to make that call than anyone else.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Aren't he and the writing staff who decides the plot though?

Considering it was the only possibility presented to us by the writers, and that it will most likely never be revisited, and that the writers themselves pushed hard on support for Venat, I think it's more likely that was the only option or at least the one most worthy of enacting at the time with the resources available. If there were any alternatives, you would think they would have at least hinted it to us instead of go full in with "Venat is our friend and we support her plan".

I don't understand what all the continued fuss is about anyway when it's all over and everyone involved is either dead or super dead.

I mean they did hint at others. What with the common knowledge that the ancients weren’t just totally not able to manipulate dynamis or not able to create beings who could. It’s just that when presented with this information people tend to handwave it and preach that Venat’s way was the only way, when it’s kind of a FF trope to defy fate and defy the hard set course and instead do what you can to defy that fate. They just forgot about that in regards to Venat i suppose. In the end the writers say a lot of things, just as they said neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn were good or evil when in reality, Zodiark was the one shielding the word and Hydaelyn was the one who lost hope in her people(Venat).

In regards to the earlier claim someone made about the Ancients just...lacking so much empathy. This is just one of many examples of that not being the case whatsover.This is just a sliver of what was caused due to one person choosing to keep life threatening matters a secret.

[Theodric]

I don't understand what all the continued fuss is about anyway when it's all over and everyone involved is either dead or super dead.

I would have thought that the lore discussion sub-forum on the official Final Fantasy XIV site would be a suitable place to discuss the story in what is very much marketed as a narrative given game.

[MikkoAkure]

In context, Yoshida was answering a point-blank question about "was there really no other way than Venat's?" and he answered, with some hesitation and elaboration that "...well, she thought so," before pointing out that Venat's stance in judging her fellow man was probably as flawed as Emet's and Hermes's. It's actually pretty telling, I think. Venat did truly and sincerely believe there was no other way - if you can say something for her, it's that she is a True Believer to the bone, ready to throw down and put herself (and others) on the line for her ideals. She is also, however, kind of a judgmental jerk who isn't omniscient or more qualified to make that call than anyone else.

That's not what I got from that. He already knew these questions and he wasn't being surprised on them. He even said while answering this one that he talked with Ishikawa on it.

But if you think that he hesitated and that there's a deeper meaning to how he answered it, then I'm probably not going to be able to convince you otherwise anyway. The way he worded it itself is weird, I'll give you that. But I don't think that he hesitated while answering it and that there's some deep secret going on and that the writers have it written down somewhere that the Ancients totally could have beaten Meteion by doing XYZ and they're keeping it from us for reasons.

I would have thought that the lore discussion sub-forum on the official Final Fantasy XIV site would be a suitable place to discuss the story in what is very much marketed as a narrative given game.

There's a difference between "lore discussion" and "the same people on each side on a crusade to stop the other from thinking their fav is problematic" and just as my example above, everyone is reading the same stuff and getting different ideas from it. I see the same posters saying the same things over and over, doubling-down on their convictions, and continuing to believe what they want to believe with an attitude that anyone who doesn't believe the same way that they believe doesn't have the same grasp of the lore that they do while the serpent eats its own tail and the cycle continues. I stopped coming to this thread because it stopped being fun a long time ago.

I never said you should stop, I don't control you, I just personally think it's a wasted effort and I can't wait until new content comes out that has nothing to do with this and this forum will move on.

[sidurgu-12]

snip

thank the twelve the live letter is almost here. though my personal fear is just growing.