Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[KageTokage]

Elpis is full of so much hopeful sentiment that ultimately proves futile. It turns out we're just watching people doomed to die go through the motions and I kinda hate it.

That's one of the main reasons why I wish they had opted for a present day Elpis over the time travel shenanigans.

Even if everything has to play out the same way by necessity, it just left me with a more sour taste thinking about what could have been had history managed to change; had we had a world with no Final Days or no unsundered Ascians misleading the sundered from the very beginning.

I tend to only find the concepts of time travel/fate interesting in stories where things are allowed to change for better or worse...which by extension made me really dislike Mikoto's Echo nonsense in the Bozja storyline which ultimately amounted to virtually nothing.

[thegreatonemal]

That's one of the main reasons why I wish they had opted for a present day Elpis over the time travel shenanigans.

Even if everything has to play out the same way by necessity, it just left me with a more sour taste thinking about what could have been had history managed to change; had we had a world with no Final Days or no unsundered Ascians misleading the sundered from the very beginning.

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

[jameseoakes]

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

We don't know that would happen, it seems very unfair to say that without misery society is doomed to fail.

[Alleluia]

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

Kage said "had history managed to change". In theory, our influence would avoid those things b/c we'd make them unnecessary, having somehow set the Ancient society on a path to potentially thrive and avoid becoming a dead end. Left to their own devices and unimpeded, yeah they were on the path to a bad end. But that wouldn't have necessarily been the situation if we'd managed to branch the timelines through our intercession.

Or it still might have been. In-universe, who can say? Even if, meta-wise, a branching timeline by necessity would have avoided them becoming a Dead End b/c there'd narratively be no point to doing it, otherwise.

[Veloran]

And, as a side note, saying she's ultimately responsible for the rejoinings is kinda blame shifting. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. She didn't make the Unsundered go through with their rejoining plan.

She let Emet live, knowing he would go on to form the Ascians and do the rejoinings. If she didn't want them to happen she should have just sundered him. This isn't even purely a "history refused to change" thing either, because we're told that she intentionally made that choice.

[Brinne]

Oh now she’s responsible for the Rejoinings! Leaving a crack for Emet somehow means that she’s the one responsible, despite resisting the Rejoinings and failing seven times. She totally forced Emet and Lahabrea and Eldiibus to kill those people. She totally knew Emet would be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at that moment, knew they would escape and manipulated them to kill billions.

Totally.

I mean... unironically, factually, yes, to all of this? She did, in fact, know all of that when she deliberately left Emet an opening to escape?

[tokinokanatae]

Not only did she know about the Rejoinings when she left Emet-Selch alive, her plan hinged upon his actions and she tried to allow him a second chance to live because she felt bad about the part he was manipulated into playing. To say that Venat has basically no issues with sacrificing lives, whether directly or by proxy, is about as text as it can be at this point. If you find that abhorrent, then you find Venat herself abhorrent.

[Alleluia]

She let Emet live, knowing he would go on to form the Ascians and do the rejoinings. If she didn't want them to happen she should have just sundered him. This isn't even purely a "history refused to change" thing either, because we're told that she intentionally made that choice.

Yes, b/c the history we came from had him alive and doing what he did. And, as I said, she didn't force him to do the Rejoining plan. He still made that choice on his own, assuming tempering allowed him a choice at all. She just didn't do something that would stop him. She allowed history to play out how it was "supposed" to b/c it was the only path she knew of that would possibly get us to the good ending of mankind surviving. How does this counter do anything, but support what I said?

Not only did she know about the Rejoinings when she left Emet-Selch alive, her plan hinged upon his actions and she tried to allow him a second chance to live because she felt bad about the part he was manipulated into playing. To say that Venat has basically no issues with sacrificing lives, whether directly or by proxy, is about as text as it can be at this point. If you find that abhorrent, then you find Venat herself abhorrent.

You are saying both that she felt great guilt about the role she let Emet-Selch live out to play, and also that she felt no guilt whatsoever about messing with peoples' lives. This seems contradictory.

[tokinokanatae]

You are saying both that she felt great guilt about the role she let Emet-Selch live out to play, and also that she felt no guilt whatsoever about messing with peoples' lives. This seems contradictory.

No, I believe Venat does in general feel very sad when confronted with meaningless death or cruelty. It's just that sadness has nothing to do with any of her actions and doesn't factor into her motivations. She can be "sad" that the Ancients are too blind to follow her path and still kill them. She can be "sad" that she's mentally torturing a fundamentally kind man that hates what he feels he has to do, but still manipulate him into doing it. She can be "sad" over the lives lost in war, famine, and disease, but still create a world where all those things happen regularly.

[Alleluia]

No, I believe Venat does in general feel very sad when confronted with meaningless death or cruelty. It's just that sadness has nothing to do with any of her actions and doesn't factor into her motivations. She can be "sad" that the Ancients are too blind to follow her path and still kill them. She can be "sad" that she's mentally torturing a fundamentally kind man that hates what he feels he has to do, but still manipulate him into doing it. She can be "sad" over the lives lost in war, famine, and disease, but still create a world where all those things happen regularly.

And how is feeling sad the same as having "basically no issues", exactly? Is she callous or not?

And I did notice the quotes around "sad", implying she doesn't actually feel that emotion sincerely, but if that's the case then why bother with making sure Hades got a second chance to live(/help his friend/confront Meteion/whatever the point you want to assume his appearance in Ultima Thule had) as some kind of penance for a guilt she didn't sincerely feel? .

And isn't that act letting that sadness "factor into her motivations"? Like, she did it precisely b/c she felt badly, if we're accepting your premise.