Trust dialog issue in the 83 dungeon

[AmemeAmeklin]

I have not tested this extensively to see every single possibility, but Y'shtola seems to have stolen Urianger's line in the Tower of Babil just before the first boss.

Specifically, she says, "He doth not appear to have been tempered." Given that Y'shtola's speech patterns don't include the word 'doth' but Urianger's do, I can only assume she was temporarily possessed by him in the various instances I've seen her say this.

Steps to recreate:
1) Have Y'shtola or her avatar in your trust party, without Urianger. (If she says it when Urianger is there, I wouldn't know as I have not run it multiple times with them yet.)
2) Approach the first boss.
3) Y'shtola, overcome by the spirit of Shakespeare, utters the line in question.
4) The other trust members act like nothing is wrong.

[Iscah]

A follow-up question on the grammar itself – my grasp of the archaic syntax is mostly influenced by long-distant German lessons in high school (not a native speaker at all) but my understanding from those is that you don't often use "do" as a secondary verb the way English does, and this sticks around to some degree in constructs like "what say you?" over "what do you say?"

So should "doth" be in there at all or should it be more in the line of "he appeareth untempered"? Or do you need "doth" to support the past tense?

[Breakbeat]

IMHO, Urianger doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to 'doth'. It's uttered by other NPCs that aren't Urianger at other times. This would be why the other party members "act like nothing is wrong," because 'doth' is a word that might come out of any character's mouth in FFXIV.

As for the grammar, in my layman's understanding of old English, 'doth' is a third-person singular form of 'do': "he/she/it does" = "he/she/it doth".

- He does not seem to be awake. (He doth not seem to be awake).
- She does try to do her best. (She doth try to do her best).
- It does seem that everything is alright. (It doth seem that everything is alright.)

Therefore this is perfectly fine:

- He does not appear to have been tempered. (He doth not appear to have been tempered.)

"He appeareth untempered," would work as well, because it's just a different way to say the same thing:

- He does not appear to have been tempered = He appears to be untempered.
- He doth not appear to have been tempered = He appeareth untempered.

All of the above four are interchangeable in any manner.

[Iscah]

IMHO, Urianger doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to 'doth'. It's uttered by other NPCs that aren't Urianger at other times. This would be why the other party members "act like nothing is wrong," because 'doth' is a word that might come out of any character's mouth in FFXIV.

You'll need to provide examples of the other characters using "doth" rather than does/do, because the vast majority of characters do not. A few supporting characters like the dragons and other ancient beings will use it, but that's because they consistently speak on the same level of archaic that Urianger does, using "thou" and conjugating words, but that's not normal language.

As I see it, the average Eorzean's language is one step removed from modern English and Urianger is two steps. He's still speaking in an old-fashioned way by the other characters' perception, but it's not as distant as it is to us.

Therefore this is perfectly fine:
- He does not appear to have been tempered. (He doth not appear to have been tempered.)

See, that's my thing. It's a correct construction in modern English but I don't know if you can convert it by just substituting the conjugated version of the word or if you have to do something more complicated with the word order.

Maybe you can, maybe you can't. It depends how and when the language evolved to its current state. It doesn't ring quite right to me, but I could easily be mistaken. I was hoping there might be someone with a more formal knowledge of it.

[Kirika-]

Y'shtola is not Eorzean, she is from Sharlayan, so that is why her language can be a bit "higher brow" than the average Eorzean's language.... "Without the illumination of knowledge, we but vainly flail as specters in the dark." - Y'shtola

She is the "Cultured Conjurer" and eternally on her 23rd nameday (even though her younger sister Y'mhitra is 26), yet will also treat us to her dry sense of humor.... "I am... not interested, little sun. Try again when you have become a man." - Y'shtola

Lastly, consider her up bringing, at around age 7 she was sent to study under Archon Matoya... That will certainly scar you for life.... "Constantly at each others throats like rabid...gods I'm beginning to sound like her" - Y'shtola

[AmemeAmeklin]

Ignoring the syntax discussion as I have no knowledge of that topic, I will maintain that Y'shtola's speech patterns do not include the word 'doth', nor does she use the other more archaic conjugations that Urianger is famous for.

Anyway, I will leave it for the localization team to decide if action should be taken. I simply felt it was out of place when I saw it.

[Iscah]

Y'shtola is not Eorzean, she is from Sharlayan, so that is why her language can be a bit "higher brow" than the average Eorzean's language.... "Without the illumination of knowledge, we but vainly flail as specters in the dark." - Y'shtola

Half the main cast is from Sharlayan so that makes no difference, and that quote doesn't demonstrate anything unusual about how she handles verbs specifically. (I also don't see the relevance of the other quotes, or what her being "eternally 23" has to do with her language choice – and in any case that's just a "don't ask her real age" joke.)

All the main cast are a step away from our language. They all do things like switch between my/mine the same way we still use a/an according to whether the following word starts with a consonant or vowel, or say "he is come" instead of "he has come". Even our own character uses "'tis" instead of "it's" in the dialogue options at the end of Shadowbringers.

[Shibi]

As for the grammar, in my layman's understanding of old English, 'doth' is a third-person singular form of 'do': "he/she/it does" = "he/she/it doth"..

It's not Old English, it's Early Modern English.

This is Old English;

Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Beowulf Circa 975-1025

So should "doth" be in there at all or should it be more in the line of "he appeareth untempered"? Or do you need "doth" to support the past tense?

Not past tense. Present. 'Doth' is an auxiliary verb in the present tense, with appear being the verb it relates to. So "doth not appear" is "doesn't appear at this moment in time".

'Appeareth' is a simple present indicative verb and could be valid as well. It's heavily used in the KJV Bible. But as you write it it would seem to me to read "he appears before us, untempered", based on the KJV "the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream"

However, Koji oft follows Shakespeare when using Archaic/Early Modern English words. And the Bard writes thus;

When it is paid according to the tenor.
It doth appear you are a worthy judge;
You know the law, your exposition
Hath been most sound: I charge you by the law,
Whereof you are a well-deserving pillar,
Proceed to judgment: by my soul I swear
There is no power in the tongue of man
To alter me: I stay here on my bond.

Merchant of Venice - Scene 4 Act 1

[Breakbeat]

It's not Old English, it's Early Modern English.

Yes, thank you, my layman's viewpoint stands corrected, and I shall use the correct term next time. Despite my incorrect choice of term, I believe everything else I said to be applicable and correct.

Given your clear knowledge on the subject, I'd be interested in your opinion on OP's two questions, which you didn't really answer at all. That kinda makes me feel like you just wanted to show me up for the incorrect term.

So:

- Is the language appropriate for an NPC other than Urianger? I feel it's just fine for any NPC to say 'doth', but you didn't touch on this.

- Despite all the details, history and context provided, you fail to state whether the in-game language of 'doth' is appropriate in the dungeon dialogue OP is referencing. I mean, I now know how the language relates to the King James bible and how Koji tends to follow Shakespearean constructs, which is wonderful, but the question still stands: is 'doth' appropriate in the trust dungeon?

You imply that it is, to an extent, but a solid 'yes' or 'no' might be more useful. I've already suggested that the language is appropriate and correct in my post from yesterday; you neither acknowledged, dismissed, or otherwise chose to address my statements that the syntax and grammar are/were correct and appropriate.

Thanks.

[Shibi]

You imply that it is, to an extent, but a solid 'yes' or 'no' might be more useful.

I am not on the localisation team. And although I personally feel that 'Shtola could use it for any number of reasons, including being around Urianger so much that his patterns of speech have rubbed off a little, it's not possible for me to comment if it's appropriate. Only the localisation team can answer that one for sure. And that's why i didn't touch it.

I was specifically answering the second part of question posed by Aurelie where she asked if it should be "doth" or "appeareth".

Please don't feel slighted you were corrected. To sleight you wasn't my intention in any way or form.