"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[VeyaAkemi]

Is common courtesy for new players aka sprouts. You dont know if the tank and /or healer can manage tanking/healing many waves of mobs in a certain dungeon. For example dungeons like the Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale can be rough with many mobs together, depending how experienced is your party. It dont helps some DPSs dont have AoE attacks available in some of these dungeons, so things dont die fast either.

Far easier is be nice and let tank and occasional healer do the pull. Or be nicer and teach them in chat the basics of wall to wall. Comunication is key.

Also, even if they are *unusually* well geared for a Sprout, they are liable to have fewer mits at those levels, if you get Sastasha for example, they may be missing Reprisal(level 22) and Arm's Length(level 32), where as Role Skills are uniquely kept when you get sync'd down, so a more veteran tank will have them.

[Lyth]

I think part of the reason why tanking is so intimidating to newer players is because they worry about having to 'lead' the group despite paradoxically being the least experienced player present. It's such an unrealistic and bizarre expectation, derived from that circa-2004 trinity MMO belief that the 'squishies' will evaporate if a mob so much as glances in their general direction. But for better or worse, this game evolved away from that design years ago.

If you want to have the biggest impact, the role with the highest carry potential across all content is DPS. The best form of mitigation is to do more damage. The best way to reduce your risk of wiping on a pull is to burn through mobs faster. The best way to ensure that your party successfully completes mechanics is to skip them. All roles can contribute, but this game has always favored skilled DPS players in this. And that's why you've seen a net exodus of experienced players away from supports over the course of this game.

Tanking is this game is extremely comfy. The rotation is a deliberately simplified variant of what you see on melee DPS. You have an abundance of defensives to soften the damage from your eight-stack vuln from failed mechanics (tank privilege). You don't have to 'lead' anything. Just put on tank stance, tag mobs that are on other players, and rotate through your cooldowns in a sensible way. If you're upfront about your inexperience, you will find that groups are invariably supportive. You can even break pulls up into single packs instead of the traditional double pack 'wall to wall' pull, so long as you're consistent. The complaints in this thread are not at all aimed at this type of player.

The real complaint is just a bit further up on the Dunning-Kruger curve. It's that player who actually believes that, having played tank long enough to consider themselves 'experienced', they are the de facto 'leader' of your little group. It's the type of tank who dramatically pauses before every pull as if considering something, and proceeds to jank tank their way through the instance. The first pack is pulled, and once your team commits and blows their cooldowns, the tank then decides to stutter step their way awkwardly to the next pack, to the frustration of all present. You'd think that verbal communication is the solution, but it just makes them defensive and starts an unnecessary fight.

There is a better way. Communicate non-verbally. When your tank sets out, march directly behind the centerpoint of their hitbox. When they tag the first set, hit sprint and go to just before the trigger point of the second set of mobs and wait. They will instinctively move forward, because they know they're not going to solo that pack on their own. When they pull the second pack, blow your cooldowns and show them the speedrun they didn't even dream that they were capable of pulling off. They don't feel threatened because they think it was their idea, and hopefully they keep it up with future groups and grow into being better tanks. I think if you feel forced to actually say anything other than 'Hello' and 'GJ' in order to complete a DF instance, there's a problem. Don't waste your time going into lengthy explanations that get you embroiled in arguments. Show them how it's done. Leadership is not a function of role. It is a function of experience.

[Kolaina]

Is common courtesy for new players aka sprouts. You dont know if the tank and /or healer can manage tanking/healing many waves of mobs in a certain dungeon. For example dungeons like the Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale can be rough with many mobs together, depending how experienced is your party. It dont helps some DPSs dont have AoE attacks available in some of these dungeons, so things dont die fast either.

Far easier is be nice and let tank and occasional healer do the pull. Or be nicer and teach them in chat the basics of wall to wall. Comunication is key.

There are max level players who can’t handle basic mechanics, let alone play “responsible” roles such as tank or healer. I’m not going to baby everyone I meet. Keep infantilizing people and they will never grow better. Care bear players

[Szylver]

I hate when healers and dps pull for me, It feels like they are in rush or something like that. I do W2W pulls but one thing people don't understand is that some players (like me) play with 200 Ping. So we need 1 second to stop, AOE, and move to the other mobs.

[Celine_Aurora]

Is common courtesy for new players aka sprouts. You dont know if the tank and /or healer can manage tanking/healing many waves of mobs in a certain dungeon. For example dungeons like the Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale can be rough with many mobs together, depending how experienced is your party. It dont helps some DPSs dont have AoE attacks available in some of these dungeons, so things dont die fast either.

Far easier is be nice and let tank and occasional healer do the pull. Or be nicer and teach them in chat the basics of wall to wall. Comunication is key.

How much can you infantilize "new players aka sprouts"? They are not toddlers. They are people playing a videogame, a very very simple videogame. Assume they have read their actions and can use them, because they should; if they fail, they fail, and you redo the pull. Maybe they'll use communication then to ask you to not do that, or in the best of cases, ask you how they could have survived that, so you can explain. But you should start by assuming basic competency.

As for AoEing being available or not, you'll always have a tank, and they get their AoE earlier than anyone else. The more you pull, the faster stuff dies, in any dungeon.

I'll make an exception for AV because there are absolutely a couple of rooms where things can get messy, but even then, it's not a problem of dps being allowed to pull or not, it's a problem of the group as a whole being aware of the shortest path to the boss room and that there are patrolling mobs.

I hate when healers and dps pull for me, It feels like they are in rush or something like that. I do W2W pulls but one thing people don't understand is that some players (like me) play with 200 Ping. So we need 1 second to stop, AOE, and move to the other mobs.

Most people are in a rush when doing dungeon. First because they get repetitive and boring, so they might want to be done and out quick (and maybe go do something more productive in game or out of game), second because in a normal dungeon duty completion is assured, so the only "challenge" is to push ourselves to complete it as efficiently as possible.

As for your ping, I'm sorry to be harsh but that's a you problem. WE shoudl expect basic competency from players, and we should also expect normal playing conditions, not a player having a substandard connection. Which is not to say "screw you", but if your connection doesn't allow you to play efficiently and you need the group to pay attention, it's your responsibility to communicate this at the start of the run, not everyone else's responsibility to play lethargically just in case someone is playing on 56k and with only one hand.

Finally, as for the general topic, YPYT is not only arguably against TOS, it is self defeatist. So I pull a pack of mobs as a dps and the tank watches me die? Great, now everything takes longer to die, either because of res penalty or because I have to run back. Does the tank think they humiliated me or damaged me by forcing me to repair my gear a little more? They have slowed the progress of the group as a whole, and next pack it's gonna happen again.

"But if you are both stubborn you are both at fault!" I can hear you saying. Well maybe, but I'm not the one refusing to perform my basic gameplay functions, which the tank could do by pressing one key.

[Atelier-Bagur]

How much can you infantilize "new players aka sprouts"? They are not toddlers. They are people playing a videogame, a very very simple videogame. Assume they have read their actions and can use them, because they should; if they fail, they fail, and you redo the pull. Maybe they'll use communication then to ask you to not do that, or in the best of cases, ask you how they could have survived that, so you can explain. But you should start by assuming basic competency.

As for AoEing being available or not, you'll always have a tank, and they get their AoE earlier than anyone else. The more you pull, the faster stuff dies, in any dungeon.

I'll make an exception for AV because there are absolutely a couple of rooms where things can get messy, but even then, it's not a problem of dps being allowed to pull or not, it's a problem of the group as a whole being aware of the shortest path to the boss room and that there are patrolling mobs.




Most people are in a rush when doing dungeon. First because they get repetitive and boring, so they might want to be done and out quick (and maybe go do something more productive in game or out of game), second because in a normal dungeon duty completion is assured, so the only "challenge" is to push ourselves to complete it as efficiently as possible.

As for your ping, I'm sorry to be harsh but that's a you problem. WE shoudl expect basic competency from players, and we should also expect normal playing conditions, not a player having a substandard connection. Which is not to say "screw you", but if your connection doesn't allow you to play efficiently and you need the group to pay attention, it's your responsibility to communicate this at the start of the run, not everyone else's responsibility to play lethargically just in case someone is playing on 56k and with only one hand.

Finally, as for the general topic, YPYT is not only arguably against TOS, it is self defeatist. So I pull a pack of mobs as a dps and the tank watches me die? Great, now everything takes longer to die, either because of res penalty or because I have to run back. Does the tank think they humiliated me or damaged me by forcing me to repair my gear a little more? They have slowed the progress of the group as a whole, and next pack it's gonna happen again.

"But if you are both stubborn you are both at fault!" I can hear you saying. Well maybe, but I'm not the one refusing to perform my basic gameplay functions, which the tank could do by pressing one key.

Its hard to agree with you when you reply with such a stinking attitude.

Im much of a bum rush dungeon runner as much as the next guy, but I seriously dont care how the tank does the pulls. As long as we get the clear thats all that matters to me. If they communicate they're trying to learn the better but Im a traditionalist so unless Im the tank, I let them do all the pulling.

[Nyxs]

Is common courtesy for new players aka sprouts. You dont know if the tank and /or healer can manage tanking/healing many waves of mobs in a certain dungeon. For example dungeons like the Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale can be rough with many mobs together, depending how experienced is your party. It dont helps some DPSs dont have AoE attacks available in some of these dungeons, so things dont die fast either.

Far easier is be nice and let tank and occasional healer do the pull. Or be nicer and teach them in chat the basics of wall to wall. Comunication is key.

You said general rule. She is pointing out that it isn’t. Courtesy isn’t rules. Rules are the ToS. No business? You aren’t the president of the dungeons. You don’t decide things. Too much ego from you guy. if people need to pull for the tank then he should improve. Stop enabling bad gameplay and gatekeeping mobs lol

[Celine_Aurora]

Its hard to agree with you when you reply with such a stinking attitude.

Im much of a bum rush dungeon runner as much as the next guy, but I seriously dont care how the tank does the pulls. As long as we get the clear thats all that matters to me. If they communicate they're trying to learn the better but Im a traditionalist so unless Im the tank, I let them do all the pulling.

Sorry not sorry for my stinking attitude. This thread is about the YPYT mentality: people who would stop playing for a while, sit and watch everyone waste their time to enforce their (flawed) perception of the way the game should be played. That stinks, not my wording, so yeah, I guess I came in guns blazing.

As for me, personally, I have never cared enough about my videogame time to make a big deal in dungeons about a tank single pulling. But that's no reason to pretend it's the intended, "correct" gameplay, or to tell anyone they have a right to hold the group back and arguably break TOS over it, instead of pushing out of their comfort zone a little.

I'll say this though: I wish, retroactively, that as I was levelling up, the people asking me to do big pulls would instead have just trained the next pack on me, to make me realize that it was entirely survivable. Maybe I wouldn't have still been a single pulling tank in 5.0 if they did.

[Szylver]

Most people are in a rush when doing dungeon. First because they get repetitive and boring, so they might want to be done and out quick (and maybe go do something more productive in game or out of game), second because in a normal dungeon duty completion is assured, so the only "challenge" is to push ourselves to complete it as efficiently as possible.

If you wanna do speedruns to perfect your clear time in every dungeon, that's a YOU thing. Most people do dungeons for leveling or farm and thats about it. No one enters a dungeon and said "hey guys we are gona break our record"

[Miracle_Diva]

If you wanna do speedruns to perfect your clear time in every dungeon, that's a YOU thing. Most people do dungeons for leveling or farm and thats about it. No one enters a dungeon and said "hey guys we are gona break our record"

Define "speedruns", please.