"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Padudu]

If it's lower level content I don't see the issue with going slow because odds are it's a new tank with a sprout icon. If it's higher level then yeah...wall to walls are expected.

usually if it's lower level dungeons I just pull in groups of two, if healer can't take it then I go normal, if we're still struggling then we're in for a long dungeon lol

other than that, I wall 2 wall even in lower lvl content if everyone knows what they're doing. I only leveled PLD for a long time, I've been through most tank woes

but yeah if the tank/healer is new I don't mind going slow, I'm in for a good time not for a hard time

[Xaruko_Nexume]

If a dps or healer pulls on accident then I of course will take aggro off of them. If they pull intentionally while everyone is ready then I will probably take aggro off of them. But if they pull intentionally while people are in cutscenes or if most of the group is not ready then I will stand back and cheer for their death.

Hear, hear! Well said. Pulling isnt your job if DPS.

[Saraide]

The thing is, even in lower level dungeons, you definitely should take aggro (which is extremely easy). If the pull is easy enough to handle than everything went right by you grabbing aggro. If the pull happens to be a close call then it will definitely be a wipe if you dont keep everyone in your party alive, if you grab the aggro as you should (as is your job) then there's a decent chance of success still.

People are under this strange impression that the two DPS have no effect on how large of a pull the group can handle. This couldnt be more false as you have limited mitigation and healing tools. Only trusts and squadrons have infinite resources.

Personally I am a tank that wants to pull things myself. That's a very natural mindset when queueing up as tank I think. However instead of behaving like a screaming baby I just activate sprint and use gap closers, ranged attacks and even provoke (whichever is appropriate) to stay ahead of the group and pull mobs. It's just that easy. A vast majority of the time I get to pull the trash group and in the rare cases someone else gets to them first, well then they'll probably survive the first auto attack until I manage to get aggro.

[LeonKeyh]

There are many layers to this that people argue not realizing that they're not mutually exclusive:


1. YPYT is a terrible mindset and is the equivalent of a temper tantrum. A tank that doesn't pick up the mobs are being petty.

2. DPS shouldn't be pulling. I could see the healer pulling if they feel like they can handle more, but DPS shouldn't really be the ones pulling.

3. As a tank, your game play doesn't change whether there are 2 mobs or 20 mobs hitting you. You still AE, you still use cooldowns. Might be slightly more difficult to track all of the mobs to make sure you're hitting them, but that's rarely a problem.

4. Healers should really be the ones determining the pace (even more so than tanks), since healers are the ones that ultimately affected the most with more mobs. Healers pulling ahead is fine.

5. This is "a thing" way more than it actually should be. I feel like the people making a big deal on it on either side are just looking for something to get upset about.

[Avatre]

If it's lower level content I don't see the issue with going slow because odds are it's a new tank with a sprout icon. If it's higher level then yeah...wall to walls are expected.

It also depends on the classes in there, and how low of a dungeon you're talking. Anything below 25 for RPR, and probably others I haven't looked at in a while, and there is no AoE attack. So party comp makes it very difficult to judge if you aren't familiar with when they get an AoE in the early dungeons.

[Saraide]

There are many layers to this that people argue not realizing that they're not mutually exclusive:


1. YPYT is a terrible mindset and is the equivalent of a temper tantrum. A tank that doesn't pick up the mobs are being petty.

2. DPS shouldn't be pulling. I could see the healer pulling if they feel like they can handle more, but DPS shouldn't really be the ones pulling.

3. As a tank, your game play doesn't change whether there are 2 mobs or 20 mobs hitting you. You still AE, you still use cooldowns. Might be slightly more difficult to track all of the mobs to make sure you're hitting them, but that's rarely a problem.

4. Healers should really be the ones determining the pace (even more so than tanks), since healers are the ones that ultimately affected the most with more mobs. Healers pulling ahead is fine.

5. This is "a thing" way more than it actually should be. I feel like the people making a big deal on it on either side are just looking for something to get upset about.

DPS players can just as easily observe and judge if another set of mobs is possible (really only a thing in older dungeons anyway). Every player is required for pulls, if your dps are garbage players then even good tanks and healers will struggle at pulls just because resources are limited.
I wouldnt say healers should be the ones determining pull size, I would say their skill level is determining what's possible. This is an important distinction I think because no one in the party should have the right to hold everyone else back just because they didnt feel like contributing.

[sharknado]

I would say most of problems is when experienced players get a novice tank that isn't mass pulling and all knowing so they start to pull to force it.

[Merrigan]

Can we please stop fussing about this?

There is no general rule. It would be nice if people realized the obvious: they play with humans, who have their own preferences and play habits. When you enter a dungeon with other players (humans; not bots), you are implicitly committing yourself to a minimum of adaptation to make it work for everyone.


Adapt yourself, instead of always going on about "You MUST do this, and never do otherwise". It's a rush dungeon (expert roulette) and the tank seems to be in as much of a hurry as you? Great, in this case pulling can be very useful. You realize that the tank has a decent pace, but no crazy rusher either? Slow down a bit, it won't kill you. I see many saying that high level tanks are expected to wall-to-wall, but sometimes even HL players want to relax and take a little slower pace.

This is usually visible when the tank doesn't care or is bothered by it. And in case of indecision, ask in the chat; it will be settled in a few seconds, all in a calm manner.

The most deleterious mentality actually comes from players who can't conceive that dungeons aren't content that should cause so much head-scratching.

[AnotherPerson]

Skiros is actually right here. If the DPS pulls, and the tank doesn't take the aggro off them for whatever reason, it's the HEALER is the one that pays the price for the tank's decisions.

Healers naturally generate aggro from healing on ALL mobs. It doesn't matter if they heal the tank or the DPS, they simply generate aggro from all mobs by healing in general. Plus, a large number of their skills are AoE heals, so that quadruples their aggro generation. A good healer will try to keep everyone alive regardless, because more DPS = safer and higher damage output => enemies die faster, so there will be less total damage and healer won't risk running low on healing resources in a pull.

If the tank doesn't take aggro, that means the tank would:
1. Be burdening your healer by having them heal a second target and risk them dying immediately after the mobs pop the DPS like a balloon because all the aggro transfers over to the healer
2. Risk having the a good healer steal aggro from the DPS and end up tanking enemies - burdening the healer more by having them be forced to heal both the tank and themselves, as well as any AoE the party steps on.
3. force the healer to not heal or use their healing skills to avoid generating aggro (a.k.a. not play their role) - in which you affect their gameplay by making them a useless cheerleader or a gimped DPS...


In all 3 instances, the tank also became a burden to the healer by making their job more difficult to keep the team alive and prevent a wipe. If the healer dies or cannot perform their job, the tank risk wiping the party and slowing down the team's progress. So yeah, the tank would be 100% at fault no matter how you look at it.

[Nav_Fae]

skiros is this the only way you can get people to talk to you

Skiros can add me on discord.