Macrocosmos completely invalidating the P3S heal check is stupid

[Liam_Harper]

I've heard this BS over and over again that it's "good that some healers are good at some things" and I roll my eyes hardcore, because this is something that only -ever- applies to healers that aren't WHM. What's the mechanic that WHM, and only WHM, has a humongous advantage over all three other healers? Oh it's nothing? Because it's always nothing. I'm so bored of this eternal, ridiculous cycle where WHM is trash, the other healers are just strictly superior choices in nearly every way, and we go round and round again with "oh it's okay you'll get fixed someday".

Normally I agree with your posts, but WHM being trash has nothing to do with other healers. No one is saying WHM doesn't deserve to be good too. Most of us are hoping WHM gets the attention it deserves. I fully agree with everything you say about WHM.

But "rolling your eyes hardcore" at the idea of other healers being good as a positive feels like you've lost perspective. Of course healers should be good. Do you want all 4 to be trash because WHM is bad? The fact that you can call the concept of a healer being good "BS" is baffling when at the same time you want WHM to be good.

If all you really want is WHM to be king and the others to go in the gutter because it's their turn, then you've lost some sympathy from me.

[Semirhage]

Normally I agree with your posts, but WHM being trash has nothing to do with other healers. No one is saying WHM doesn't deserve to be good too. Most of us are hoping WHM gets the attention it deserves. I fully agree with everything you say about WHM.

But "rolling your eyes hardcore" at the idea of other healers being good as a positive feels like you've lost perspective. Of course healers should be good. Do you want all 4 to be trash because WHM is bad? The fact that you can call the concept of a healer being good "BS" is baffling when at the same time you want WHM to be good.

If all you really want is WHM to be king and the others to go in the gutter because it's their turn, then you've lost some sympathy from me.

I'm rolling my eyes at this -exact- same BS cropping back up from Stormblood. It's a piecemeal construction stitched together from good arguments that stand on their own, but are used to defend stupid status quo. The currently-overpowered healers want to have their cake and eat it too. It's an unassailable Motte and Bailey argument.

"Diversity between healers is good! Homogenization bad!" is the argument du jour when it serves. What, how dare you criticize me having good tools, don't you want healers to have unique abilities!?

"What is this stupidity about healers having weaknesses, classes shouldn't have weaknesses!" Oh, but I thought you disliked homogenization?

I heard this bullshit from Scholars and Astros back in Stormblood all the time. Homogenization bad (when it's used to suggest that one healer being super good at everything is OP). Homogenization good (when it's used to suggest that one healer being good at everything is "really good design"). You can't square bringing WHM up with these two incompatible positions. What exactly would you make WHM good at then? Because if you give them something that the overpowered healers are already good at, that's BAD EVIL HOMOGENIZATION. And whoops, would you look at that, they're already really good at everything what a coincidence.

I'm rolling my eyes hardcore not at the idea of other healers being good. That's a strawman they fling up every single time anyone criticizes how overpowered they are. I'm rolling my eyes at the idea that a healer being good at everything is healthy for a balanced role, because it's not. You only compete with a class that has no weaknesses by having no weaknesses yourself. And considering the bitchfest the other healers launch into whenever anyone dares suggest WHM get anything like party buffs or the like, it sounds to me like the quiet part you're not supposed to say is "yep me being OP is good, but I hope they fix you someday, but not in a way that ever allows you to be competitive with me, kisses!"

They're literally never going to make WHM good Liam. You're going to have to watch the other healers go through waves of being OP and getting nerfed. You'll get patronizing head pats from them when they're OP, and tooth-gnashing fury from them claiming your complaints are what got them nerfed when that happens too. And all the while, time continues moving forward.

I find it really galling that me pointing out the fact that WHM has never been king of anything is construed to mean that I'm an evil WHM main out to destroy the other healers, but the other healers defending their constant meta slots isn't a bad thing. Lemme ask you, should WHM ever be the best at anything? Because clearly if you think so, that's tantamount to wanting all of the other healers to be garbage can tier.

EDIT: To summarize, you have two axioms. "Homogenization is bad; healers should be useful in different places", and "job X being A or S-tier at everything is good design because weaknesses are bad". You take these two statements and throw them in the logic machine, and what I see as the inevitable conclusion to those statements is "I'm superior to my competition by definition". What else could you conclude? If you give the competition things that it "needs" to be as good as the job in question, that's homogenization. And you can't bring the unassailable, impenetrable good-at-everything class down, because that's "good design". So yes, WHM is terrible in part because the other healers are "good". Because I think their definition of "good" means "my competition remains bad", they just imply it with several assertions that overlap to produce that state instead of saying it outright.

[HyperiusUltima]

Yeah? And explain why people complained to hell and back about WHM's Lilies being HORRIBLE in Stormblood? They harped on that for THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. And guess what they got? A better lily system. It's not about some status quo crap you're referring to as if it's a "us vs. them" when in reality it's more "Devs do not know what to do with healers".

I heard this bullshit from Scholars and Astros back in Stormblood all the time. Homogenization bad (when it's used to suggest that one healer being super good at everything is OP). Homogenization good (when it's used to suggest that one healer being good at everything is "really good design"). You can't square bringing WHM up with these two incompatible positions. What exactly would you make WHM good at then? Because if you give them something that the overpowered healers are already good at, that's BAD EVIL HOMOGENIZATION. And whoops, would you look at that, they're already really good at everything what a coincidence.

Put it in retrospective: The Devs balanced themselves into a goddamned corner with AST because it could do both the things that WHM could do and some of the things SCH could to an extent and then some. The question you should be asking actually is "What is WHM good at currently? What is it lacking QoL-wise?" WHM is good at healing, but that's it. It needs more MP, and it needs a flat rework due to the job's design being stuck in ARR since they want a nice, simple healer. In fact, WHM doesn't need their Lily Heals to be on GCD anymore. Make them oGCD since WHM can now weave so that Misery is a big enough gain. That was what WHM's power was over the two before: Flat Potency. Misery would put it high up enough to contend in terms of raid damage contribution given how PoM is; but MP needs fixing.

I find it really galling that me pointing out the fact that WHM has never been king of anything is construed to mean that I'm an evil WHM main out to destroy the other healers, but the other healers defending their constant meta slots isn't a bad thing. Lemme ask you, should WHM ever be the best at anything? Because clearly if you think so, that's tantamount to wanting all of the other healers to be garbage can tier.

HW? They were king of healing - until 3.2 when AST got buffed enough. Stormblood? King of healing again - but everyone wanted damage because of AST and AST got buffed. Shadowbringers? Damage. They contributed raw damage that helped their rDPS get high enough to compete with the other healers. Now? Nothing. I also do not believe people are defending their slots: It comes down to the community's preferences which varies from DC to DC; but I'd like to add you aren't helping your argument by attempting to demonize the other three healers.

Your edit also is causing your argument to be more stigmatized, and I can tell the emotion just by reading it. WHM needs the buffs, yes. We all typically aren't arguing unless we literally haven't even touched the job. We know for a fact that WHM is underperforming heavily compared to the other healers because their MP economy sucks, along with their damn job design that doesn't help itself due to the limitations put on WHM's own systems(Lily being GCD still when we have a 1.5s cast now, Liturgy being a horrible capstone due to WHM requiring to take damage, Holy III still having a 2.5s cast time, and so on).

[elioaiko]

Needlessly said, AST is not truly broken. It's exhausting to play with the APM and less remember when AST came out weak in HW and was nearly unplayable in initial ShB.

This isn't an argument that WHM is inherently bad, the devs have left WHM to rot over the years and it's showing because they've finally shown an interest of making unique healing skills for AST while WHM just got same ol' same direct healing with no utility or planning behind it.

I wish for WHM to be buffed but if we're asking for AST to "put" in their place, AST has less than half of playrate than WHM. SE sees this and has tried to make AST feel good to play so people might actually play it, thus experimenting with its kit a lot which is a good thing. But since so many people play WHM regardless of how bad it, that's all they need to keep it the same.

And tbh, whenever they do buff WHM and it's possible that they buff them to be better than AST, suddenly AST isn't favorited anymore. People want faster clears and if WHM's buffs were enough to surpass AST's buffs then you can bet that AST will have even lower play rate considering that people hate the new iteration of cards for AST and the population is already low.

So we should support both jobs, not bring one down for the other to rise. Healing is already easy, why not just make WHM be on AST's level instead.

[Mortex]

Yeah? And explain why people complained to hell and back about WHM\\'s Lilies being HORRIBLE in Stormblood? They harped on that for THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. And guess what they got? A better lily system. It\\'s not about some status quo crap you\\'re referring to as if it\\'s a "us vs. them" when in reality it\\'s more "Devs do not know what to do with healers".



Put it in retrospective: The Devs balanced themselves into a goddamned corner with AST because it could do both the things that WHM could do and some of the things SCH could to an extent and then some. The question you should be asking actually is "What is WHM good at currently? What is it lacking QoL-wise?" WHM is good at healing, but that\\'s it. It needs more MP, and it needs a flat rework due to the job\\'s design being stuck in ARR since they want a nice, simple healer. In fact, WHM doesn\\'t need their Lily Heals to be on GCD anymore. Make them oGCD since WHM can now weave so that Misery is a big enough gain. That was what WHM\\'s power was over the two before: Flat Potency. Misery would put it high up enough to contend in terms of raid damage contribution given how PoM is; but MP needs fixing.

The problem is for white mage it’s both these things. Yes they don’t have a clue what too do with the healer role in general, but whm as the “noob friendly healer” will always get the short end of the stick in all situations as long as they treat it as a baby healer. It’s one of the most iconic jobs in all of final fantasy so a lot of people play it, but for square that equals it’s a good and fun and strong job for people so they don’t buff it or change it. And about lily system it was absolutely useless and it’s still meh on a healer that losses hard dmg when he uses lily gcd heals, when all other healer have way more ogcd tools and even stronger ones too (benediction on 3 mins were astro gets that on 90 seconds cd on 2 dignity charges). Whm is stuck in a endless loop of mediocrity that will never change as long as square thinks whm is the baby healer.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

One of the only things I liked about EW astro is macrocosmos because it gave me some of the time magic feeling we lost from stormblood. If it is busted in one mechanic you can change the mechanic to not do 9999999 damage and just do all hp -1. Even if atm it is busted it's one of the few moments that actually feels fun to do cuz it's so satisfying to see that heal xD
I really wish they add more unique skills that need some forethought like that one. Dno what people have in them that makes them go lets take away something nice from this job because that job is in a poor state.

[PoeTato]

Macrocosmos isn’t overpowered at all. It is an average heal in most scenarios. It is only a huge heal when it is able to “bank” several hits within its 15 second window. Most of the time, you are only ever able to get 2 raidwides in certain spots within a fight and that still requires you to use other rescources between hits so your party doesn’t die. The only “free” 100% heal Macrocosmos provides is from this one P3S mechanic. That doesn’t make it overpowered. You have to use Cure III twice and your cohealer has to use a couple abilities as well. That is fine. How are you upset about that? Cure III is the most powerful GCD heal in the game. WHM are equipped to deal with that mechanic just fine.

[ForteNightshade]

Macrocosmos isn’t overpowered at all. It is an average heal in most scenarios. It is only a huge heal when it is able to “bank” several hits within its 15 second window. Most of the time, you are only ever able to get 2 raidwides in certain spots within a fight and that still requires you to use other rescources between hits so your party doesn’t die. The only “free” 100% heal Macrocosmos provides is from this one P3S mechanic. That doesn’t make it overpowered. You have to use Cure III twice and your cohealer has to use a couple abilities as well. That is fine. How are you upset about that? Cure III is the most powerful GCD heal in the game. WHM are equipped to deal with that mechanic just fine.

All three other Healers aren't taking a damage penalty to heal this mechanic, thus it cannot be fine. This line of logic is no different than Living Dead being "fine" despite it punishing the user when no other invuln does. There's a major discrepancy. Nevermind the fact Cure III isn't the most powerful GCD heal. It demands a massive amount of MP on a healer with the weakest MP economy is completely outclassed by the combined options able to Sage, Astro and Scholar. Zoe+Pnemua alone can nearly handle Life's Agony and that's completely free healing.

[PoeTato]

All three other Healers aren't taking a damage penalty to heal this mechanic, thus it cannot be fine. This line of logic is no different than Living Dead being "fine" despite it punishing the user when no other invuln does. There's a major discrepancy. Nevermind the fact Cure III isn't the most powerful GCD heal. It demands a massive amount of MP on a healer with the weakest MP economy is completely outclassed by the combined options able to Sage, Astro and Scholar. Zoe+Pnemua alone can nearly handle Life's Agony and that's completely free healing.

I won’t argue that WHM needs more OGCD heals. It absolutely does. Cure III is the most powerful GCD heal regardless of mp economy, but I also won’t argue that WHM needs more mp regen. It absolutely needs that too.

However, WHM is still able to deal with that mechanic just fine. Sorry it makes you miss 2 GCDs of damage, but that doesn’t change that WHM can deal with the mechanic.

Hoping you all get some reworks sometime soon. Nerfing other classes is not the answer. WHM just needs to be buffed to be as good as the other healers.

[rewd]

I won’t argue that WHM needs more OGCD heals. It absolutely does. Cure III is the most powerful GCD heal regardless of mp economy, but I also won’t argue that WHM needs more mp regen. It absolutely needs that too.

However, WHM is still able to deal with that mechanic just fine. Sorry it makes you miss 2 GCDs of damage, but that doesn’t change that WHM can deal with the mechanic.

Hoping you all get some reworks sometime soon. Nerfing other classes is not the answer. WHM just needs to be buffed to be as good as the other healers.

Cure III is the most powerful GCD heal only if you set arbitrary conditions that make your statement true.

Macrocosmos is, for obvious reasons, the strongest GCD heal. Then we have Medica II and Aspected Helios. Cure III is only the strongest one if you exclude Macrocosmos and only consider burst heals. It has the same potency as Pneuma, but it costs more MP, has a very small range and is a DPS loss.

It was a very strong skill several years ago. Now it just represents WHM's current state: weaker and clunkier for no reason at all.