Macrocosmos completely invalidating the P3S heal check is stupid

[HyperiusUltima]

I used it on every single normal aoe i could in NORMAL Mode Pandemonium and it healed almost full in every single aoe.
Also checked in dungeon, where i got 17-ishk, damage and healed 13-ishk back.

This isn't an accurate assessment in regards to Macro's actual output. In Normal Mode and dungeons you are not going to be hard pressed, plus you have to take into account you have a random healer with you that potentially could throw off your assessment. Dungeons also are not a good gauge of a job's kit, mainly because of the damage intake the current dungeons have. Sure, the tank will get a lot when used on large pulls, but it doesn't do it justice otherwise.

Also ast can absolutely shield heal?
Neutral sect
Exaltation
Celestial Intersection
Collective Unconscious
And all of it has a verily short cooldown, too and nice sideeffects.

Exaltation is a Mitigation, not a Shield. It heals after it expires.

Intersection is arguable at best since it's useful about every 30s; and a lot of damage can happen in 30s despite how you have two charges of it.

CU is again, a Mitigation that comes with a HoT attached to it. Not a Shield.

I think they are talking about weaknesses because sage, whm and sch sort of have weaknesses.
Whms are different than SCH and Sage, but all 3 of them do, ast... doesnt.

This is where the job design matters since the stat squish and their opting to split the healers into two different types. Sure, AST has a large wellspring of MP due to Cards and their self-buff, but when I was playing it optimally I found I still had to use Lucid to keep my MP going despite using Draw every 30s next to Astrodyne; so I feel there is a slight exaggeration on AST's limitations when comparing them to others in a high-end fight such as this.

[Cheremia]

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I would argue that it is. Yes, normal modes are a cakewalk and all but most skills only get to shine in extreme/savage/ultimate and are very unbalanced for normal content.
What i mean is that Macrocosmos got underestimated for no reason because apparently not many people experimented with it before the savage tiers? Or extremes, i dont know.
People were so fixated that its a dps loss apparently.

Its extremely strong for baby aoes in normal modes, so i dunno why some people still underestimated it.

Also sch/sge only have 2 direct shields, the rest is only mitigation, too, isnt it?
Single and aoe shields.

So ast technically has 3 shields with neutral sect and intersection, no?

[Rika007]

Also sch/sge only have 2 direct shields, the rest is only mitigation, too, isnt it?
Single and aoe shields.

So ast technically has 3 shields with neutral sect and intersection, no?

Once again why is the question here about AST? Shouldn't we be instead focusing on why the original SHIELD healer this game here has only 2 direct shields in it's entire kit? Like ok let's remove 2 of AST's shields! Now they have less then Scholar! Yay problem solved! W00T.

Except... wait a minute. Scholar still only has 2 direct shields. So now scholar still feels like it doesn't do enough shielding and feels like crap, and now AST ALSO feels like crap because it's cool little oGCD kit of shields just got gutted. That's my issue with this entire conversation of nerfing AST over it's "perceived lack of weaknesses". It takes too much of the focus off the three other healers in this game that have valid issues (and off AST's own issues as well). If we were to get the other 3 healers in a good spot and STILL had this issue, then yes absolutely its time to look at AST. But not till then.

[HyperiusUltima]

I would argue that it is. Yes, normal modes are a cakewalk and all but most skills only get to shine in extreme/savage/ultimate and are very unbalanced for normal content.
What i mean is that Macrocosmos got underestimated for no reason because apparently not many people experimented with it before the savage tiers? Or extremes, i dont know.
People were so fixated that its a dps loss apparently.

Its extremely strong for baby aoes in normal modes, so i dunno why some people still underestimated it.

Also sch/sge only have 2 direct shields, the rest is only mitigation, too, isnt it?
Single and aoe shields.

So ast technically has 3 shields with neutral sect and intersection, no?

It's funny how you think Raw Mitigation = Shields in this regard. Shields are identified as that yellow bar on your HP Gauge, or anyone else's for that matter, on the Party List. Regardless, your argument isn't holding up too well. Since when have people underestimated Macrocosmos? Since the Media Tour and translations, people had been thinking that Macrocosmos could potentially be busted. I was thinking the same idea that this very thread is attempting to argue over - Is Macrocosmos busted to a point where it stigmatizes an entire role?

The answer is no. ASTs before Savage experimented with its usage when they were optimizing EX1 and EX2, but the fact that you don't know much about it shows your evidence is rather lacking to the point the argument falls apart. I recommend you to try doing Savage or EX1 as AST to see for yourself in this case and understand my point of view on this.

Regardless, I don't see the point in arguing with you any further because of this projecting - it's doing nothing for the thread and it isn't helping. I also am in agreement with Rika that we're focusing too much on AST and not even thinking about the other healers. When it comes to balance, you have to think about it: Is it good for a job to stand out like so because of a single ability? The majority seem to agree on that notion considering how we were pretty close to homogenization in Shadowbringers. I'm also of the mind that hyper-focusing at one job is akin to ignoring the fire that's around - like the dog at the table saying "This is fine." If we're going to put out the fire, we need to assess where problems are, as well as how the job plays - but that is for another discussion.

[Cheremia]

Ah no i know what shields are but its rather that all healers have too little shields instead of just mitigating damage.
Barrier healers have more HoTs than pure healers too, it‘s all completely off.

Especially since a lot of sge/sch dont want to use the shields because gcd heals and a lot of people dont wanna use them.

I personally just like mitigation more, so i throw it in one category with shields, even tho it‘s wrong, so thats on me. That is because shields are usually pretty unflexible and i suck at pre-healing. Its better for sage but they have so many other tools…

And good to know, i only heard people be surprised that it works on 1hp mechanic before this, been pretty quiet.
My example is that, even the „worst“ macrocosmos with a pretty weak aoe is not THAT far off of lilybell.
Lilybel heals more than the aoe did, too.

Its all just big healing for no reason again.

I‘m in the camp that all healers have way too much healing potency on everything.
Sure, let ast have a button that invalidates mechanics that makes others use more of their kit, i‘m just don‘t like it.
Just like i‘m not a fan of bene+ld and other healers have to work more.

Ast can just do the same as whm as pure healer and also becomes a barrier healer every 120seconds.

Some heals are „only“ made to make some savage mechanics easier, even tho i would like having to heal more (and be rewarded for it) in general and not less because the game is afraid to make healers heal and just give them big heal button (as least sch doesnt have an overblown ultra heal i guess…) and also „punishes“ them for using gcd heals.
Whm is a good showcase of them being afraid to reward their gcd healer for doing the only thing they can do.

I dont even wanna argue that much, so i‘m sorry for that too.
Just sick of seeing „oh heal mechanic that needs big healing! Not that one class tho lol“
Of course people are gonna use ast over whm because why would you risk dying to a healcheck if you can just… not do the healcheck?

I could just not use the buttons, yes, but i dont want my kit to be way too good for everything just because i‘m more on the casual side of things and only do Ex on content if i feel like it.

That more clear?

Edit: I think it's fair fo, esplecially WHM-Players, not to want Asts to laugh at them even more, since they do so every expansion. Not "laugh" as in players, but laugh because it does everything better.
Lilybell is still the "good" one for the big heal. The big heal is just super delayed for whms kit AND also has to be placed extremely carefully. If you NEED the big heal at the end, then you can not place it before you take any other damage, otherwise, you're wasting potency on something you dont want to.
Ast just shows whms problems every time, with their heals costing less for same potency, them also being a shield healer sometimes and them also having more Hots and so on and so forth.

I dont want ast to be nerfed-nerfed, but like, why did earthly even get so much range even tho they could have just gone with a ground effect so people see it? Not like people stand in soil/asylum all the time and asylum is still pretty bad compared to Soil/Star too.
Ast is just a very good example of being able to do everything, so why wouldnt we look at it too?

Of course whm sucks, we all know it sucks. It's not a nono to bring up what one healer can do compared to all the others tho. But they always rather buff AST instead of anything on whm. That's the opposite direction of where it's supposed to go, in SHB Ast was bad at the start, fair. It got buffed, which was NEEDED. And then buffed, and then buffed.
Ast sucked in HW too and got buffed and buffed and buffed after too.

That treatment should just happen to WHM for once. I'm glad they changed the awful confession system and made Lillies less garbage. That was horrible in Stormblood...

You should bring the bottom to the top first instead of nerfing the top.
Never even said it needs nerfs, i hope, since i didnt mean that anyways.

What i mean still is: Macrocosmos always good to use, lillybell strong but extremely clunky to use and i dont want the big heal.
"Barrier"healers having more hots than "barriers" is stupid.
Ast having more Mitigation, shields and hots than everybody combined is also sort of stupid, but whm just needs SOMETHING more than just wings on a long cooldown to at least be a bit more on even ground. Dunno why people asking to what Ast actually can't do is bad since it do be a good question.
I'd rather have more skills like expedient instead of "uuuHuhUhu big heal, look at this big heal".

Instead of regens, sch/sage should have more shields, like, actual shields. Can be weaker than the gcd shields, just something. Reward them for using their gcd shields, too.
Reward whm for having to gdc heal.
Make some of the mitigation has on Ast do something else. Not all of it, just one skill do something else. It had things it could do before and cant do now they could give it back. If they dont overblow whatever it would be, of course. Make it extend buffs for a bit again for all I care. Also Minor Arcana sucks, make it one button or put it back where it was in shadowbringers.

If only they weren't afraid of rewarding healers to do their job. Or actually make them do their job more.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think this draws back to the design they went for. The reason even Shield Healers have regens is because of dungeons. They have to be able to operate in a minimum capacity when it comes to small and large pulls, since I assume they also check on some optimizations for jobs in the Dungeons.

The AST rant aside all this is just showing how bad WHM’s design is - it’s stuck in the past like people say. It needs a complete rework and proper buffs to work.

[Cheremia]

…..

In the past:
Asylum
Benes animation lock (same goes for hallowed)
Freecure (same goes for the crit thing ast has)
Holy cast time. It wouldnt be op with a bit shorter casttime.
Every single aoe heal costing a liver: was fine when ast didnt have same potency, since it traded faster, weaker heals for beefier heals.
Cure 3, nobody can tell me that skill is still relevant other than overhyping.

If only the game would reward gcd healing, then more sch would also use big beefy adlos/succors. They dont tho. Thanks game.

Ast also has relics from the past but they get updated. Mostly. Sch does too.
Just to go back to a worse version of minor arcana… i mean 2 buttons to press, but i liked it more when it was a seal management tool, too. A me thing. I hated Stormblood Minor Arcana so much.

Its not like i dont know the problems myself, i have a couple of my own for whm.
But looking to the top, the healer that now competes with whm in same category, shouldnt be seen as bad.

Also me thinks sge/sch would do fine with one regen each…
„Pures“ should be regen healers, if i had to chose.
They do fine without a billion mitigationtools, as in… i mean whm.
Imagine they wouldnt be afraid to give benison/veil/asylum secondary effects? I know asylum buffs healing btw.
Wings are fine i guess, other than cooldown.

They really dont trust people to manage a bit spicier healing so everything heals a lot…

Pvp healing is pretty fun tho, not gonna lie. Unpredictable and you cant spam strongest heals and are limited in healing options. Just a mething tho.

Agreed on buffing whm.
Disagreed on not looking at ast in comparison. Not to nerf it all to the ground….
Wanting heals to not to be so beefy doesnt mean every healer has to be bad.

[Liam_Harper]

Lilybell really isn't as bad as people say. It's great at what it does in Savage, pop it during Intemperance, Coherence, FoF and it'll churn out massive heal potency on a solid 20y range from a convenient fixed position. A bit of QoL like a detonate option would be great, but it's a good ability. WHM's issue is that while AST has plenty of short oGCD's too for the smaller mechanics in between, WHM has very little. Asylum is outdated at 90s, Aquaveil is just bad, Lilies are rubbish and there's not much else.

Macro is ridiculously good and maybe AST needs some small tweaks and nerfs, but I still don't feel it should be the primary focus. For me it's miles down the priority list. WHM reworks, healing being engaging and the majority of encounters doing next to no damage is what's important and nerfing Macro before addressing these solves literally nothing except making AST a little less fun. Same as the outcry over tank healing.

I say this as someone who used to main WHM and doesn't really enjoy AST this expansion, so there's zero bias for my "favorite class" keeping its fancy OP toys. I just think when your main class isn't fun, the worst thing to do is demand the devs go and nerf other classes and take their toys away too. If they actually listened, they'd just nerf the good class and call it a day. They're not going to rip toys from others and give them all to you.
It also gives an impression of being jealous of other classes being better. For example when SCH or WAR lost its top spot in ShB people would actively say they didn't "deserve" buffs because they had their moment and it's good they're bad now and "entitled SCH's just want their class to be the best lol". Basically acting like children. If I was a developer looking for feedback and those same people said "SCH deserves to suck, now buff my class!" I'd never listen to them.

I'm not saying AST is perfectly balanced, but I honestly don't care right now. I'm glad they're at least good. There are much bigger issues to focus on.

[Cheremia]

Mood

Same, whm is my main and ast was always my least favourite of them all.
But WHM just is really weird to play right now.

And buffing BEFORE nerfing, since if everybody is on even field, adjustments are way easier.

Adjusting cooldowns and adressing Lillies (aka Misery) is important. And taking noted from Ast and also Sage and Sch should be a thing. Not copy, just... their cooldowns are mostly fine.

I will just always question why they buffed earthly star like they did but did NOT touch Sacred Soil. A skill that needs recources to be used and i personally think that things that need resources should be good. Soil is GOOD but highly unflexible. A bit bigger would do Soil SO much good.

Whm is just the most popular because it's literally the ONLY healer you can play from the start. Of course it's always gonna be the most popular.
So it's fine, right... i hate that way of thinking and sadly that seems to be the reasons.
You can't make WHM less popular if it's the only healer to start on on the block.

Btw: Lilybell isnt bad, but very clunky to use and using it too early makes it waste potency and using to late means an akward waiting time. I'm just not a big fan of super mega heals, but that doesnt make Lily outright bad. The clunkyness just... feels bad to use. So, agreed but usage feels akward even if used correctly in my opinion.

[Alpheus]

As a healer main and a SCH main I do find it funny that the biggest issue (as far as this thread) is that a healer job actually has a capstone ability that feels like a capstone ability should, and we have no idea how to cope with this. i can't think of a better indictment to how awful healing as a role is in XIV and it makes me sad.