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  1. #1
    Player SeiyaSoiya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    361
    Character
    Hariette Reina-cuento
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90

    Why are there no positionals in PvP?

    This is more of an abstract question, part of a bigger picture
    Recently I have been getting into pvp, and yes, it's very fun yadda yadda, [insert politically correct opinion about pvp suitable for a youtube video]

    however one thing I can't help but notice is how simplistic pvp action kits are when compared to pve.
    When I go into a pvp match I barely have to look at my hotbar, I can get away with spamming one ability for a while, letting abilities sit on cooldown and not losing any efficiency because of that

    let's take for example my main class, black mage.
    1. fire and blizzard 1 are instant casts that are spammable pokes, they refresh enochian with each cast, making keeping up the enochian 15s timer a breeze
    2. it is not necessary to upkeep a thunder DoT on your targets 100% of the time, because of the way thunder works, you simply cannot reapply thunder once you have the thunder nuke
    3. you are not supposed to burn your thundercloud proc when the thunder debuff is about to expire, you are not supposed to use swiftcast as soon as it's off cooldown
    4. polyglot takes 15 seconds to build up, meaning not only do you get a ton of xenoglossy but you cannot lose any for losing enochian

    Which begs the question: in PvE, are we not fighting our own skill kit above anything else? there are so many hoops and obstacles you have to jump through in pve to do it correctly, it feels like artificial difficulty.
    A lot of "job identity quirks" like positionals and having to upkeep DoTs as bard do not exist in pvp, which makes me really wonder if those things are just artificially planted to make the PvE experience worse for the sake of making it worse.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Skiros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Posts
    617
    Character
    Drake Drakon
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Netcode is way too bad for positionals to work well.

    however one thing I can't help but notice is how simplistic pvp action kits are when compared to pve.
    When I go into a pvp match I barely have to look at my hotbar, I can get away with spamming one ability for a while, letting abilities sit on cooldown and not losing any efficiency because of that
    You can't get away with that in high-end PvP. That being said there's no Feast season right now.

    Which begs the question: in PvE, are we not fighting our own skill kit above anything else? there are so many hoops and obstacles you have to jump through in pve to do it correctly, it feels like artificial difficulty.
    A lot of "job identity quirks" like positionals and having to upkeep DoTs as bard do not exist in pvp, which makes me really wonder if those things are just artificially planted to make the PvE experience worse for the sake of making it worse.
    The gameplay loop is to maximize your DPS by harmonizing your rotation with the encounter. Doing the rotation optimally is the fun for a lot of people.
    (2)

  3. #3
    Player SeiyaSoiya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    361
    Character
    Hariette Reina-cuento
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Skiros View Post
    Netcode is way too bad for positionals to work well.



    You can't get away with that in high-end PvP. That being said there's no Feast season right now.



    The gameplay loop is to maximize your DPS by harmonizing your rotation with the encounter. Doing the rotation optimally is the fun for a lot of people.
    is high end pvp about upkeeping constant dps rather than using your burst correctly?
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Cheremia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    477
    Character
    Awashio Sazanami
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Back then, you had your normal abilites in pvp and it was incredibly unbalanced.

    WHM was sort of unkillable because they could blow out everything and then just bene themself while running away.
    And stun everybody with holy while they were on it.
    Its still very hard to kill one if one whm gets targeted down and another heals them (just had that yesterday where another whm and me stalled 10+ people on the other whm for so long that our entire team could come to help).

    Bards could dot multiple targets, without an reliable way to remove them, it was super strong. While also being able to kite melees into infinity because they could just always run away from them and come back when the melees were retreating themself.

    It was a mess.

    Also good luck hitting positionals in PVP, where targeting the right target is the hardest part in itself. God the targeting in pvp is horrible, no matter what targeting options i take, i always have to tilt my camera down for it to not target somebody in narnia, out of my range instead of the people right in front of me.
    I'd rather make them change that first.

    You're more able to concentrate on rotations in PVE, PVP has like, depending on the mode, at least 24+ people on screen sometimes, dont think you'll manage to do your rotation in any meaningful way before either you or the enemy dies.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player
    TheMightyMollusk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    7,416
    Character
    Iyami Galvayra
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Because other players would just.....move. Keeping positionals in PVP would effectively be a nerf to melee players for no good reason.
    (11)

  6. #6
    Player
    Adeacia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    588
    Character
    Adeacia Lightheart
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk View Post
    Because other players would just.....move. Keeping positionals in PVP would effectively be a nerf to melee players for no good reason.
    I was about to say this but you beat me to it. Positionals would be nearly impossible to hit in pvp, making them pointless to have.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Lieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    347
    Character
    Valesti Nibelung
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Unfair advantage for lalafells
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Jin-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    1,236
    Character
    Jin Wa
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    No collision detection. Railroad combat with only set in stone way to play. Slow server tick rate. And many other issues in general.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,865
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    In pvp you want to catch people off guard, being predictable is the last thing you want to do.

    Melees needs their positionals? I’ll just spin like beyblade and they’ll likely miss all of those.
    That SGE wants to Repose you so they can pointblank shot you with their Pneuma? Yeah let’s bait them, mark them, and gang them.
    That NIN has an ‘opener’? Yeah let them exhaust their big guns then we’ll mow them down once they’re out of kits.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    Rhysati's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    407
    Character
    Madeye Moxie
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Jin- View Post
    No collision detection. Railroad combat with only set in stone way to play. Slow server tick rate. And many other issues in general.
    Collision detection is irrelevant. Most good mmo pvp systems don't have it.

    The real problem is the terrible servers as you also pointed out. If you've ever done dungeons, you'll see that it often looks like players are standing in the middle of enemy attacks before sliding their way to freedom after the attack goes off, having not taken any damage.

    Because the server hasn't yet updated you client for where the person is. Same where sometimes you die to a boss mechanic but your body is laying outside of where the attack went off. The tickrate and lag is so bad on the server that you can't tell where people actually are. Which means positionals on players is just not a thing that'll work. It doesn't even work on npcs if your tank is pulling them away from you. It looks like you are close enough to poke the enemy but none of your attacks will go off because the server doesn't think you are close enough.
    (2)

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