Condensing Bard with Morphing Buttons

[Absimiliard]

Frankly, most of the jobs could use with some morphing buttons. There's zero reason for each job's primary combo (or in the case of some two or more combos) to take up so many spaces on our hot bars. Condensing them into one button per combo would in no way impact the game's overall difficulty, but it would allow us to organize our bars in far more player-friendly ways.

[ForteNightshade]

Frankly, most of the jobs could use with some morphing buttons. There's zero reason for each job's primary combo (or in the case of some two or more combos) to take up so many spaces on our hot bars. Condensing them into one button per combo would in no way impact the game's overall difficulty, but it would allow us to organize our bars in far more player-friendly ways.

It does, however, make the jobs feel worse for a lot of players because they're now pressing a single button instead of several. People typically prefer the feel of multiple button presses, which is why every time combo consolidation comes up, it's might with massive vitriol. In fact, Summoner is precisely why people hate the idea. While it wouldn't change anything to space out SMN's buttons, it'd feel less spamm-y if they weren't all consolidated together.

Now if combo consolidation actually led to new abilities or even third string combos being added, I'd be more open to the change. If it's simply going to delete six buttons on Dragoon and replace them with nothing. I'd rather keep the combos as they are now instead of spamming 1222111112. I'd be even worse on tanks. Warrior's would be 111111 with the occasional 2. Could ask the Healers how they like that gameplay...

[Xander_Diabolos]

Frankly, most of the jobs could use with some morphing buttons. There's zero reason for each job's primary combo (or in the case of some two or more combos) to take up so many spaces on our hot bars. Condensing them into one button per combo would in no way impact the game's overall difficulty, but it would allow us to organize our bars in far more player-friendly ways.

I agree... Most jobs do a 1, 2, 3 combo and morphing them into 1 would save a lot of space (especially for controller users that have 8 primary abilities they can set)

[LeonKeyh]

If you think checking to see if Refulgent Arrow is lit up or not requires thought or any bit of effort then I don't know what to say except LOL.

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

I agree... Most jobs do a 1, 2, 3 combo and morphing them into 1 would save a lot of space (especially for controller users that have 8 primary abilities they can set)

I play on PS5 and can tell you that controller players have no trouble with how it is currently. I'm not sure where you're getting the 8 abilities from, but starting out you have 16 and can add 16 more on screen with an additional 16 through holding in both triggers. Paladin and Samurai were really the only "rough" jobs in Shb (haven't checked them out in EW yet) requiring some abilities on the "hidden" hot bars. Controller users shouldn't be who you're fighting for this for.

[Xiaoki]

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

[LeonKeyh]

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

Throwing around "straw man" as your singular defense isn't really defending your point.

Comment One: I like actual depth (that which gives engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).
Comment Two: This is merely bloat (uses up space otherwise available for complexity or QoL/responsiveness and does not give engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).

That's not exactly "playing both sides". You can be pro-depth and anti-bloat (even if there's a degree of --well, artificial-- "complexity" involved in bloat).

That's somewhat fair, but where's the line? At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics? Are you saying that every "just damage" button should be a single button then? Single button combos? Dancer having 2 buttons instead of 4 for their combo with procs replacing it? Where is the line there? MCH having a single button combo which also turns into Air Anchor/Drill whenever those abilities are up?

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

[Shurrikhan]

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

They're not just hitting 1 button, though. They're hitting only 1 action. Compare that to a 3- or 4-step PvP combo, for instance, which is still 1 button but far from a single action.

At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics?

Yes. Precisely that. What characteristics something must have or how we weigh each will vary with underlying warrants that are by no means universally agreed upon, but being "bloat" IS a matter of having too few or shallow of 'good things' for the amount of cost they put on the system (often thereby pushing out options for better things).

Take the Refulgent Arrow example, for instance. At present its complexity is essentially just to, per .5s queuing period, roll your finger from the Refulgent button to your Burst Shot button; doing that, if you have a Refulgent able to go, it is used, and if you don't, Burst Shot is used instead. Combining them into a single key therefore costs no thought --only a tiny, quickly passive habit for one's thumb or nearest finger-- but makes room for either (A) greater depth or (B) for less used but thoughtful actions to be buffed, rather than trimmed.

Now, you can also go the other route by actually making it viable to hold a Refulgent Arrow, such as by giving it stacks. Voila! Refulgent truly becomes a separate fixture, a separate decision than just "keep doing filler ST damage", actually worth a second button.

But having a non-decision that does not even require the most passive of tracking --let alone "engagement" no matter how pedantic a definition one tries to pass despite its typical use in this domain-- take up space otherwise be usable for actual depth is not complexity. It's bloat.

[Rika007]

snip

I don't think any one disagrees with you in the idea that yes if we were to get those new skills with more actual complexity then having a morph button for Burst into Refulgent would be fantastic and a great way to reduce bloat. The issue is that's a hypothetical that would only occur down the line in an expansion where the dev team will devote the time to making large rotational changes. As for the here and now, it would be one of my last choices of reducing bloat, as even if it's level of complexity is reaching slightly up to my triangle button instead of pressing my X button again, I will take that if nothing else is changing.

There are just better targets to address the here and now button bloat of Bard. Useless role actions being condensed into one ability (All the Graze abilities) or just axed entirely (why does Peloton still exist). Or actual job actions like Warden's Paen (if it ain't getting reworked then the dang thing needs to be removed). Personally I would rather see the songs be condensed to a morphing button, as then I wouldn't have to be as terrified of a bad fat finger screwing my rotation in a way that literally can't be recovered from as much as I currently am.

[Shurrikhan]

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

Comment One: I like actual depth (that which gives engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).
Comment Two: This is merely bloat (uses up space otherwise available for complexity or QoL/responsiveness and does not give engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).

That's not exactly "playing both sides". You can be pro-depth and anti-bloat (even if there's a degree of --well, artificial-- "complexity" involved in bloat).

[HyoMinPark]

I don’t know of many abilities that could be condensed on BRD outside of Burst Shot/Refulgent procs, and Minuet/Pitch Perfect. I saw someone saying to turn Mage’s Ballad into Bloodletter, but the issue there is that BL is not used exclusively within Mage’s. All three stacks are squeezed into burst windows, which would be your Minuet + Raging window. So I fail to see how condensing these two would help. If anything, now you’ve locked BL into just Mage’s and removed the usage of them during the other two songs (and stockpiling them for bursts).

You could just outright remove Leg Graze and Foot Graze (I don’t even have them on my bar), and Repelling Shot. Repelling hasn’t been on my bar since the took the damage off it in Stormblood, and I don’t think it has much use. BRD is 100% mobile and not locked into a melee range, so a backstep doesn’t seem that useful to me (compared to how it would be a melee). Warden’s Paean is another that I think can be sent to the chopping block. It’s just too situational, and not as useful as it could be—now if they want to add in cleansing mechanics, then fine. But right now, there just aren’t enough being added to really give credence to keeping it around.

As it stands, I don’t think BRD has “button bloat”.

I agree... Most jobs do a 1, 2, 3 combo and morphing them into 1 would save a lot of space (especially for controller users that have 8 primary abilities they can set)

Controllers don’t really have a problem with button bloat. I don’t know where you’re getting the “8 primary abilities” from where 1 crossbar is 16 slots…. Enable the expanded cross and you instantly have access to 32 button slots easily.