Condensing Bard with Morphing Buttons

[LeonKeyh]

If you think checking to see if Refulgent Arrow is lit up or not requires thought or any bit of effort then I don't know what to say except LOL.

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

I agree... Most jobs do a 1, 2, 3 combo and morphing them into 1 would save a lot of space (especially for controller users that have 8 primary abilities they can set)

I play on PS5 and can tell you that controller players have no trouble with how it is currently. I'm not sure where you're getting the 8 abilities from, but starting out you have 16 and can add 16 more on screen with an additional 16 through holding in both triggers. Paladin and Samurai were really the only "rough" jobs in Shb (haven't checked them out in EW yet) requiring some abilities on the "hidden" hot bars. Controller users shouldn't be who you're fighting for this for.

[Xiaoki]

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

[Shurrikhan]

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

Comment One: I like actual depth (that which gives engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).
Comment Two: This is merely bloat (uses up space otherwise available for complexity or QoL/responsiveness and does not give engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).

That's not exactly "playing both sides". You can be pro-depth and anti-bloat (even if there's a degree of --well, artificial-- "complexity" involved in bloat).

[LeonKeyh]

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

Throwing around "straw man" as your singular defense isn't really defending your point.

Comment One: I like actual depth (that which gives engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).
Comment Two: This is merely bloat (uses up space otherwise available for complexity or QoL/responsiveness and does not give engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).

That's not exactly "playing both sides". You can be pro-depth and anti-bloat (even if there's a degree of --well, artificial-- "complexity" involved in bloat).

That's somewhat fair, but where's the line? At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics? Are you saying that every "just damage" button should be a single button then? Single button combos? Dancer having 2 buttons instead of 4 for their combo with procs replacing it? Where is the line there? MCH having a single button combo which also turns into Air Anchor/Drill whenever those abilities are up?

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

[Shurrikhan]

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

They're not just hitting 1 button, though. They're hitting only 1 action. Compare that to a 3- or 4-step PvP combo, for instance, which is still 1 button but far from a single action.

At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics?

Yes. Precisely that. What characteristics something must have or how we weigh each will vary with underlying warrants that are by no means universally agreed upon, but being "bloat" IS a matter of having too few or shallow of 'good things' for the amount of cost they put on the system (often thereby pushing out options for better things).

Take the Refulgent Arrow example, for instance. At present its complexity is essentially just to, per .5s queuing period, roll your finger from the Refulgent button to your Burst Shot button; doing that, if you have a Refulgent able to go, it is used, and if you don't, Burst Shot is used instead. Combining them into a single key therefore costs no thought --only a tiny, quickly passive habit for one's thumb or nearest finger-- but makes room for either (A) greater depth or (B) for less used but thoughtful actions to be buffed, rather than trimmed.

Now, you can also go the other route by actually making it viable to hold a Refulgent Arrow, such as by giving it stacks. Voila! Refulgent truly becomes a separate fixture, a separate decision than just "keep doing filler ST damage", actually worth a second button.

But having a non-decision that does not even require the most passive of tracking --let alone "engagement" no matter how pedantic a definition one tries to pass despite its typical use in this domain-- take up space otherwise be usable for actual depth is not complexity. It's bloat.

[Easayia]

No all doing this does is dumb down the gameplay to less button presses AKA making the job more boring to play.......
morphing buttons is not a good idea unless its specific skills that make sense to morph which on Bard theres not many I would suggest. IDK why people are suggesting burst shot becoming refulgent when it procs..... the whole point of Bard is weaving skills in with each other you remove that extra button press you are removing the feeling of the weave entirely.

Something that I could see maybe morph on bard would be the songs just becoming 1 button and swapping to the next after using 1 in a specific order but this is also not needed. Same with maybe the 2 dots just make 1 dot morph to the other after its used. But that feeling of quickly weaving burst shot > blood letter > burst shot refulgent > blood letter etc is what makes bard feel interesting and enjoyable to play. You never want to introduce morphing to job skills that completely would change how the job plays which doing it to refulgent and burst shot 100% does. same with bloodletters.

I mean dumbing down jobs is not a solution. Heck I would argue for most jobs they have already been dumbed down enough any more and your going to lose your hard core fans raiding with their jobs.....

No one wants to play a job that presses 3 buttons look at summoners rework its to simplistic. but it can still be built on going forward and it should be. Bard this expansion got a real opener that feels great. You finally feel like you have a well thought out burst window and the number of button presses is why it feels like that.

[Rika007]

snip

I don't think any one disagrees with you in the idea that yes if we were to get those new skills with more actual complexity then having a morph button for Burst into Refulgent would be fantastic and a great way to reduce bloat. The issue is that's a hypothetical that would only occur down the line in an expansion where the dev team will devote the time to making large rotational changes. As for the here and now, it would be one of my last choices of reducing bloat, as even if it's level of complexity is reaching slightly up to my triangle button instead of pressing my X button again, I will take that if nothing else is changing.

There are just better targets to address the here and now button bloat of Bard. Useless role actions being condensed into one ability (All the Graze abilities) or just axed entirely (why does Peloton still exist). Or actual job actions like Warden's Paen (if it ain't getting reworked then the dang thing needs to be removed). Personally I would rather see the songs be condensed to a morphing button, as then I wouldn't have to be as terrified of a bad fat finger screwing my rotation in a way that literally can't be recovered from as much as I currently am.

[Iscah]

(why does Peloton still exist)

Because it makes you go faster?

Especially valuable in the field where we still can't sprint for more than 20 seconds in a minute.

There is absolutely no reason to ask for its removal. It isn't used in battle so it doesn't change anything. Just don't use it if you don't appreciate it.

[Shurrikhan]

Because it makes you go faster?

Especially valuable in the field where we still can't sprint for more than 20 seconds in a minute.

There is absolutely no reason to ask for its removal. It isn't used in battle so it doesn't change anything. Just don't use it if you don't appreciate it.

Though, did Rika ask to remove Ranged jobs' ability to grant movement speed, specifically?

The button could as easily be handled by just having a passive movement speed aura when outside of combat. (Technically, it'd be better in some circumstances, as auras don't count as an action and therefore don't have that small bit of enmity on application and therefore wouldn't force the Bard into combat the moment they Peloton a player already in combat, stopping the Bard from using or further granting that buff.)

Or, to put it another way: Does Peloton need a distinct button?

If you prefer hitting that key and seeing the green pulse animation over having other skills within handier reach, then probably "yes". Otherwise, probably "no".

:: Granted, I'd still offer that as much as I like having a physical ranged in my party, I see no reason to limit that capacity to that one role -- which can be reframed, conversely, as seeing no reason to give that role that capacity. I'll take it or leave it, but the days of physical ranged being supports are long behind us, so there's little thematic sense to it unless we wish to push them back towards that archetype.

[SailorCeti]

After playing my Dragoon to 80 and picking up Reaper, I agree. If there's a button that activates something else, and isn't useful until the other thing is used, then by all means, morph the dang button. It isn't as if they'd be getting rid of an ability, only saving space on the bar.