Caster balance - Progression jobs vs speed

[localman]

The real problem, as always, is the endgame itself and all its restrictions, which extend like tentacles to everything and put everything under the rule of this imposed game content.

Putting a competitive and comparative game into a role-playing game is the downfall of the latter all the way.

There used to be better times in the genre... unfortunately, we don't develop in the MMORPG genre at all anymore, we prefer to build end-game games without content, but with the same old spiral consisting of spreadsheets.

Who came up with the idea to abuse MMORPGs/aRPGs like this?

How wonderful could today's real MMORPGs be if they had been developed further for 15 years instead of turning it into this murderous suicide of a genre?

At least I had the privilege to experience the good old days myself and how wonderfully it worked. What could have been made out of it and what was the genre used for, making virtual athletes out of the com, who constantly beat each other up and all the RPG content is eaten up by the monster Endgame (a completely different genre)...abominable in essence.

[SeiyaSoiya]

Res are virtually useless in a prog.
Sure they will help you discover mechanics, but it won't help against enrage.

If you have a KO, most of the time you better wipe due to not being able to solve the next mechanic or not being able to beat the DPS check.

Or your group is overgeared and DPS check don't matter, which is where res can become handy.
BUt since your group is overgeared, the res is just more breathing room to the healers.

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

[Azuri]

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

[SeiyaSoiya]

And have you done TEA where rez is completely useless for most prog-intensive phases since a single death inevitably leads to a party wipe shortly after?

Saying that rez is useful in lvl 70 content that lost all of it's former difficulty isn't a great argument.

no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

[Azuri]

no haven't done TEA yet, but I'm pretty sure not every single mechanic in it is an instawipe if 1 single person messes up

What if I told you that it pretty much is? Mechanics in TEA happen faster than a person can get through rez black screen + animation lock and are heavily reliant on all 8 players doing the correct thing or the whole mechanic collapses. Living Liquid is full of "each player has to bait an AoE" mechanics and having only 7 people alive means there is a stray AoE murdering half the group every time. Most deaths in Limit Cut leads to a stray bait that kills half the group. A single death in BJ/CC means you've lost one of Verdict debuffs and can't resolve Gavel. Wormhole in P3 immediately turns into a complete mess of random deaths since it's based on 8 very specific baits, and is immediately followed by a very hard hitting stack. And in P4 you get to experince very fun concept of beacon player dying and immediately taking three more players with them.

Yes, you can chain rez your way through UWU. But there is a reason why UWU is considered an EX trial+ at this point.

[CKNovel]

I'm guessing you've never done an ultimate, where progression takes weeks and even a month, instead of the 3 days it takes to prog P3S/P4S P1
a red mage res during, say, ultimate annihition or ultimate predation is the difference between being able to see ultimate suppression now, or in a week.

Did the 3, progged twice every ultimates with different groups.
On average, it takes a month with a 3-4 raid night, can be faster yes.

UCOB, you can cheese, raise through mechanics for sure, we all know the legendaries 20 KOs run, but that's because it's poorly tuned nowadays, you can start the add phase with damage down on everyone and still pass it with no troubles.
On other mechanics, a KO is most often a wipe since you won't get that person for mechanics.
TEA P2, you can't have a single KO for example.

I've been raiding since end of HW and I stand by my point:
Resses are virtually useless, they are additional breathing room like Dark Mind. Except one is actually a good breathing room, the other is almost placebo.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Imo the "need" for a Rez Caster is purely a community mindset. Yes it is obviously nice to have a safety blanket in case your healers have had to use both Swiftcasts already, but you are shooting your BLM in the foot if you force him to SMN / RDM first only for him having to relearn a fight as BLM again, or they won't because you may not like taking longer for reclears.

Do yourself a favour - if you have a BLM in your group but want Caster Rez, drop a melee instead and run double caster.

That said, remember when Yoshida said there was a LONG debate about SMN keeping rez? Maybe speculation, but I think that debate was in relation to SMN damage. Since it kept Resurrection... that's likely why SMN got to be lower end of the dps chart. Also probably because they'd otherwise be Phys Ranged in mobility without paying the utility and mobility tax.

[Dyvid]

Why is it acceptable that casters are divided into “progression” and “post-progression” jobs?


Caster is the only role that deals with this. RPRs aren’t switching to SAM once they’ve cleared a fight. Many groups put pressure on their caster to play summoner and red mage until a fight has been mastered or at least cleared. I know there are groups that clear fights with a black mage, but many groups would prefer to have that rez for progression purposes and it puts additional pressure on players who do not enjoy those jobs.

Ranged physical pays a “ranged tax”, and while that is an entire other topic of conversation the idea behind those jobs is that their damage is in relation to their personal damage plus the damage they provide to the party. They’re essentially balanced around one another.

I think the balance team should look at this and consider removing raise from summoner and possibly red mage. It would be weird and uncomfortable at first, but the player base would eventually adjust.

Because Raise is unbalanced and needs to be fixed to where all caster have it or non have it.

[Grimoire-M]

Join date records first time posting on the forums, not when someone began playing FF14.

If you look up Gaethan here on the Lodestone, you'll see from my achievements that I began playing in 3.0, despite the forum "join date" being around the time of 5.0 launch. Because I didn't post on the forums until then.

Azuri has Perfect Legend, most (all?) of the Savage raid mounts, and a bunch of jobs at 90, at least. I'd find it pretty difficult to believe they literally began playing the game last December, and if they did they've clearly been very busy doing high end content.

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In regards to the main thrust of this thread, can we please stop demanding that Verraise be put on the sacrificial altar every time BLM pulls ahead of the other casters?



Raise is not holding RDM back from BLM numbers. Being designed as a more support-ish, superficially mobile (BLM is actually shockingly mobile now), and superficially simpler job is. This will not change if rez is deleted and some other utility is added to replace it. Especially if that utility is actually unique (e.g., Refresh), and not just another mitigation cooldown.

SMN has been a very strong DPS several times in the past while still retaining Raise. I think it's current state is clearly a result of the rework and its ranged-physical DPS levels of mobility, not Raise.

The developers have aimed to put BLM on top of the DPS boards for some time now, and I don't see that changing. What BLM brings to prog is very high DPS when played competently (not perfectly, competently) that isn't dependent on how well other people are playing (no rDPS buff). That's a trade-off with the safety net of Raise. Trade-offs are not bad design.

Can we please stop demanding further homogenization of roles? Do you want the caster-DPS to be the new healers? Because that's how we got to the current state of the healers.

This. So much.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

I still think the caster rezz needs to be looked at since it is a problem when comes to balancing casters(even if few think otherwise). I've seen people complain about the rezz mage memes rdm had in the past and I see blm asking for rez or utility of any kind so that has more purpose and is used more in prog. I know some of yall think it's not a big deal but it always has been a problem. I saw someone bring up how smn was a powerful dps with rez in the past. That was mostly because the devs tended to over buff smn in the .1 patches and always had to nerf it afterward because it usually did close to or more dps than blm. When that was happening smn was being picked more because you got both a high dps job and a rez for prog. It did leave both blms and rdm at the door at parties. At the impression, I got from people comments about the past. I usually never paid attention to pick rates since I am in a mid core/casual static who let me play whatever job I want. But I believe those peaple comments and I do believe the rez is an issue in the casters' balancing.

Personally, I like to see one of two things happen to caster rez:
One: They just delete altogether and let healers be the ones to deal with picking the dead off the floor. Then buff both rdm and smn accordingly based on the utility they bring and bring all three caster closer together like the melee and phy range roles.
Two: They make the rez a role action that has a long CD and is an instant cast oGCD. That why blm at least has some place in prog also other than just having "high dam".

Also, let's not forget we were close to having just one caster rez this expac. SMN's rez was on the chopping block and the devs seemed pretty ready to pull that trigger. I personally believe smn rez isn't going to be around after EW since with its rework swiftcast is now being used more in its rotation than ever.