Quests and its basis

[localman]

Preliminary note
Quests in an MMORPG, which increasingly turn the game into a single player RPG, are basically one of the nails in the coffin of the actual genre MMORPG.

In an MMORPG it was and is always about the journey as the goal, so not getting through and maximum level, but about the level phase, the co-op mode, the dependencies of the classes on each other, the professions as a fundamental pillar for equipment, the character development in terms of skills and their content presentation and the group play in the open world, location-based over a period of time, as well as a game world in which the enemies are dangerous and equal to the player, so that it is constantly worthwhile to want to play together with others.

Even though a certain amount of solo play must be present, it must not become a solo game and the enemies completely loveless in the world even harmless pixels.

Nor is it a good thing to have player-controlled mounts, flight mounts certainly not.

For this, however, it is an absolute necessity to totally decelerate the gameplay.
Currently, we're running after quest points, like in a job, and constantly porting and riding and flying all over the world map. Fetch me 5 flowers from the grave on the other side of the game world and then come back within not even 10 minutes is just a totally bad gaming experience, not to mention believable.

The MMORPGs have already through this solo quest principle, totally devalued itself and developed lousy.
I would go so far as to say that they are no longer MMORPGs as they were intended and existed in the true sense. They are a whole new kind of occupational therapy.

[localman]

Principles(simplified)
Okay, so if we want to stick with that principle, it's still a good thing to get the quests and their completion on a better track.
For this it is desirable, even if technically not easy to implement, that you play much longer in one area and are not continuously, or as good as was not, sent through the whole world, for basically any simple things that take less than 10 minutes.
And if that's going to be the case, that you have to get something somewhere on the other side of the game world, then that has to be an epic journey that takes, in real time, weeks.

The game experience needs to be grounded again much more and the world and the flow needs to be brought much closer to the player.
To do this, the world and its monsters must also become much stronger, so that it also feels like you are living through a game world and not just blindly rushing through it for a reward or questitem.

In addition, it is essential to finally rebuild the NPC world and its difficulty and tuning.

First, it is important that the NPCs around well-guarded zones such as cities, etc. are weak and then you dynamically increase the thing.
So the further you advance into the wilderness, the harder it gets, also in terms of level.

Secondly, the NPC monster world needs a reasonable increase dynamic. If I start as a small hero, I don't fight undead or other very powerful creatures, but small water bugs or crazy rabbits.
This has the effect that strong enemies are not burned for nothing, but you can integrate them in a proper proportion as a threat in the game world with increasing level.
If it goes then on a graveyard against undead, one knows, that it will go now to the thing and if I start against a bear, I must have myself what on the box, because ..we speak here of a 500Kg-750KG wild 20 man strong bear!... No level 10 village wood swordsman can kill it.
And when I fight a werewolf, I know that it is only possible with friends/ranks, because a werewolf is a bloodthirsty werewolf and not a water bug.
And the werewolf can be replaced with dragon creatures, lichs etc., it's about the principle and the authenticity of a game world.
In this way, the player grows into the world and its threats.

Thirdly, the monsters should not run around like puppets.
They need their own logical game world and where they can be found and how they function there.
In a steppe there can be lions, and when they get hungry, they hunt zebras, wildebeests, and when the player is running around there, they hunt him, too... And in a pack and dangerously... it should create a believable dangerous world. But the lions have their places and don't stand around stupidly. The zebras walk around, the wildebeests are a herd and behave accordingly.

[localman]

And then you can also bring more peace into it and integrate the quests sensibly, as well as leave the player longer in the area, so that he also understands this as an authentic game world and not just as a workplace in the home office...


Quests(the frame)
The quests themselves should not be a rewind mechanic. They should be an accompanying function that defines the distant goal, but does not devalue the game world.
The player fights his way towards his goals and experiences an adventure in the process. But the adventure is in the foreground and the task is a distant goal.

It's like walking from my front door sometimes 20 kilometers, sometimes 2000 kilometers.
I know the destination, but the journey will become my actual content. And now the question is, how interesting do I keep this content. Certainly not if I jump around in the world like a disc in a table field hockey... But also not when I have to wrestle down 75 mobs for one hoof.

Of course, this doesn't work with 5 million quests. So it needs a certain quest depth and entertainment value.

In addition, it is very important that class quests are treated separately. When it comes to the actual core aspects of an RPG, and this includes the development of skills, then special quality requirements must be considered here. Character development of skills is an essential RPG experience and makes role-playing games really interesting and what they are.

Here, the tasks should also be constantly adapted to the class and its philosophy, as well as to the talent that one learns or expands.
So if I learn tracking as a ranger, then the quest should be built accordingly to track a wild animal. And this task does not have to be done within a few minutes. But I follow a dangerous gray wolf, which endangers the farmer his sheep and must finally bring him to the hunt.

So it is again the 200 kilometer way I go, not only the goal is crucial, but just the thing itself should be conveyed well and convincingly.

I hope to have helped...

[Beytran70]

Some of these features in in fact existed in games like the original 1.0 FFXIV which, of course, was a disaster. Indeed many MMOs have tried to strive for some of the things you've mentioned, but none of them really endured, because the truth is that isn't why people play MMOs or most RPGs for that matter. If a single game were to try and implement all of what you said, you'd find that it would no longer be conducive to being an MMO and barely even an RPG.

What it sounds to me like you want is something more like Dungeons and Dragons but in game form. Such games do exist, though they are mostly on the older side of things now since that gameplay style has gone out of favor due to how quickly it becomes boring to some people. The next closest thing I can think of are survival games like have become increasingly popular lately, but they tend to be more focused on creating your own world within a world instead of surviving in an already existing world. If you've not played it, I recommend the game Kingdom Come: Deliverance as it includes some of the things you mentioned.

Lastly, on the topic of features such as dynamically spawning NPCs and interspecies relations and stuff, at some point you have to consider the very real fact that most players would not even notice such features, let alone be directly impacted by them. Sure it sounds great and realistic on paper, but just like, say, Geralt's hair dynamically growing in the Witcher 3, does it really matter beyond saying, "Oh hey, his hair is growing, that's cool," once or twice?

[Iscah]

In short, you are asking for a different game that is not this game.

This game has its own audience who would probably not collectively appreciate the changes you are asking for.

If what you are asking for is indeed what people want out of an RPG then it should be made as an independent game. Not turning this one into it.

[Frizze]

Yeah, i made it halfway through the first post before noping out. I want none of this. Maybe the ideas get better further down, but based on the replies so far im assuming i dont need to continue reading.

[localman]

Some of these features in in fact existed in games like the original 1.0 FFXIV which, of course, was a disaster. Indeed many MMOs have tried to strive for some of the things you've mentioned, but none of them really endured, because the truth is that isn't why people play MMOs or most RPGs for that matter. If a single game were to try and implement all of what you said, you'd find that it would no longer be conducive to being an MMO and barely even an RPG.

What it sounds to me like you want is something more like Dungeons and Dragons but in game form. Such games do exist, though they are mostly on the older side of things now since that gameplay style has gone out of favor due to how quickly it becomes boring to some people. The next closest thing I can think of are survival games like have become increasingly popular lately, but they tend to be more focused on creating your own world within a world instead of surviving in an already existing world. If you've not played it, I recommend the game Kingdom Come: Deliverance as it includes some of the things you mentioned.

Lastly, on the topic of features such as dynamically spawning NPCs and interspecies relations and stuff, at some point you have to consider the very real fact that most players would not even notice such features, let alone be directly impacted by them. Sure it sounds great and realistic on paper, but just like, say, Geralt's hair dynamically growing in the Witcher 3, does it really matter beyond saying, "Oh hey, his hair is growing, that's cool," once or twice?

Yes you must not conclude from the then primitive to today's possibilities.

The core principle of these games of yore was great, as they always had the focus in the moment and the whole world as an RPG had its value.

Today, getting through quickly counts as the only true content of a spreadsheet with a reward principle, like a paycheck.

We're actually working down quests in these games like an assembly line, and it's solo play.

The old games back then like Dark Age of Camelot, had the much better basic framework for an MMORPG world with values in all the mechanics like professions as item givers and group play etc.
But of course, they would be far too heavy-handed in the area of character development and gameplay today. There's no question about that.
But also consider a lack of development.
Had they started there and not dismantled the basic framework and replaced it with an end-game comparison contest, but then polished up the content there, the whole game concept would be outstanding today.

There would certainly be more quests today, especially in the area of character development. But there would certainly also be a much smarter system in the free game world that connects players rather than separating them and locking them into a personal quest tunnel.

The open dungeons back then also had a lot of potential and had a very good focal point for group play and friendships out of it. Today, the inis are wordlessly just a means to an end. You are put into a forced group for a short time for your personal tunnel.
The tendency is already towards a single-player variant with a few NPCs as helpers.

You just have to be honest. These modern so-called MMORPGs have only rudimentary to do with real MMORPGs, as they were once created and what they stand for.

What possibilities would we have today with clever systems to create absolutely immersive and at the same time connecting MMORPGs.

But the trend always goes back to these sports games with performance thinking and number crunching.
Even the aRPG since Diablo 3 at the latest has fallen prey to this destructive factor for the actual RPG.
Instead of the path as the goal, only the goal is relevant.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Seera1024]

Games that drastically change course when things are going great typically crash and burn.

When your game is so popular that you have to stop selling and stop marketing the game, you're obviously doing something right.

Changing the core game so drastically would be fixing what isn't broken and is actually more likely to cause players to leave because the game is no longer what they enjoy and paid for.

If your idea is drastically different from the game you are suggesting it for, it's better to frame it as a suggestion for a sequel or the company's next game to use that suggestion.

Which is what your idea falls into: drastically different from what this game is. This game is doing exceptionally well and changing drastically is more likely to drastically harm the game than help.

Your idea isn't bad in and of itself. It's just not good for FFXIV. Maybe for FF's next MMO this would work well.

[Breakbeat]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days

All I can say is that modifying a current game or creating a new game in 2022 that is similar in design to games that came out twenty, thirty years ago, wouldn't appeal to enough players to be profitable. We aren't at all the same gamers that drove the industry in 1999. Time has moved on, and relevant gamers (13-25?) today simply want different things, namely, faster gratification and solo play.

Watching the times change is simply part of life and getting older. I could sit here all day and pine for the funk to come back to hip-hop (funk-sample-laden hip-hop went out of style two decades ago) but it just isn't. At least, not any time soon. 'Kids these days' just don't want the same things, and it's the 'kids' that video game (and music) businesses care about, for the most part.

It's alright to be nostalgic, either via thoughts, or tangible enjoyment of the past; reasonable people do it all the time. IMVHO it's simply futile to push for MMOs to return to decades-old styles, the same as it would be futile to advocate for GTA VI to be a top-down 2D action game, even though those are its roots, and many people (including myself) have very fond memories of playing that original GTA until the sun came up.

[localman]

Well, but basically these MMORPGS of today are no longer RPGs in the true sense of the word.

They have long since become, and are, a genre all their own. Namely, a kind of last level instance sports game around a number competition and item exchange.

RPGs are, however, in addition to a built-in adventure as a story, so to speak, always interested in the journey and not in reaching the end of the game.
Ok, in such a game, there is of course also after reaching the maximum level further content, but which basically also ties where the development of the character to the maximum level ends, with the actual character development via the skills and its expansion and specialization.
And here you have to prove a good hand.
Of course, this is not necessarily the goal, but you are always present in the endgame, no matter what level you are. The game, as an RPG, doesn't feel like you want to get through and finish because then the sports part kicks in, but the path is always felt to be totally present and you're always exactly right at every moment.

And this is where proper RPGs differ from these new-age "RPGs," or rather new-age endgame games with shallow RPG touches.

But this requires a completely different approach to the games. You don't build a game for the endgame from the beginning and bring in singleplayer to that extent and automatically prevent group play everywhere and all the time with this way of playing.
The professions are the item providers, the classes are real roles and have real differences that complement each other in a very slowed down and hard world.
How else can you build a good MMORPG if you don't have the basics for it?

And it's clear that a healer has to struggle a lot in solo play, whereas a servant class has it easier. In the end, however, group play is always more worthwhile and the healer will constantly find groups very easily, because he is a guarantee for much safer play and simply offers more opportunities to explore the world much deeper, where one fails solo.

There is then also only little instanced, but dungeons are open, the group play takes place steadily everywhere. There will be many small groups of 1-3 players who fight their way through the world to advance into a crypt, for example, because they need something down there for their class quests to develop.
The talents are also always divided again, in order to result so with the same class, nevertheless differences.
It's not about DPS, it's about Coop. Each class has its significant advantages and disadvantages.
Classes like Supporter and CCler are again with it and very valuable.