Warning for "Grief" Tactics?!

[Myrany]

While I agree, I can understand why they don't as it adds a huge layer of busywork for the GMs and puts it firmly on them to sort out. Often it's very easy to reflect oneself, read the ToS and see "Ohhh I see that's what I did", then never need to file in the first place.

In my case I mocked a troll on the forum and got a 10 day ban for it. (Bravo to you, space-bunny-alien-fairy-person; you baited me and got me). Didn't realize that was what it was but I could figure it out in about 20-30 minutes of digging.

Except that it is a GMs job to sort out problems. So I have no sympathy on the busywork front.

In your example you were able to sort out what you did. That is great. For many that won't be true. Perhaps they just do not see the behavior as offensive or maybe they just don't interpret a rule the same way as SE intended it. For the latter see the huge threads when the new examples of actionable behavior were put out not long ago. Individual interpretations of those example were widely varied to the point where some people had diametrically opposing views on what they meant.

If the GM is doing their job properly and looking in to the problem incident to make a fair judgement it would not add "busywork" to allow them to give a statement of what the infraction was without identifying a specific incident or person. Simply saying "griefing" is far too general.

EDIT: I actually rather suspect this is a policy dictated by SE's legal team to cover themselves vs laws varying in multiple countries. In which case it is unlikely to change.

[Misutoraru]

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the GMs and SE need to change the way they handle reports. There needs to be some transparency on what someone did wrong so they can prevent it from happening again.

It is a difficult subject

On one hand it would be ideal that GM could show the scene where or what it break TOS

On the other hand they have to keep the privacy of player who submit the report to prevent any harassment

[SturmChurro]

That is called an example of something that would constitute as a violation that someone might otherwise consider themselves just playing the game. Arguably with both the report and the action carried out on your account it was fairly agreed upon that what you have done did constitute as an account violation. See, amongst all the things you could have done to vent you insisted that you've done nothing wrong, then gone on to say "Well how I behave on here isn't necessarily how I present myself in-game" All the way up to "People just don't like how I word things"

I might have actually been inclined to join your little venting crusade if it were underpinned by the reasoning that you don't think it is justifiable that they can sanction you without giving you an avenue formally at the same time where you can try and dispute the decision, or an avenue with which to see the logs associated with the decision making, of which there is (DSAR). Instead of being insistent that you were innocent and that the community are just babies that like being coddled through everything. Inarguably you're more upset and have put more effort into this vent than the person did in actually reporting you.

I'm glad you liked the rationalisation of it. Because it's true. If you breach the ToS it shows an unwillingness to act appropriately and thus someone reporting you is doing a civil service by ensuring that you're deterred from repeating the mistake (That is if you reflect on your own actions) - P.S I saw that little ninja edit. In response to saying you'll use it as justification whenever you report someone. To that end I wish you all the best in your endeavours of fighting the good fight and doing the selfsame thing that you bashed people for in your original post.

I am innocent. I haven't participated in 'grief tactics'. I complain about it constantly on here. Literally. I have gotten in arguments on here over what I think is griefing: the improper usage of rescue, RDM LB3 blinding players during mechanic heavy moments, etc.. The reason I vehemently defend my innocence is because, again, I did not do it. How I play the game isn't me "griefing", and I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here.

I have barely put any effort in this vent. I have been posting now while queuing for my weekly raids, and eating breakfast. Yesterday, I think I only posted once in the morning.

I "ninja edit" just about every single thing I post, doesn't even matter what it was. I have talked about it before in other threads, people shouldn't think much on it.

I mean, they might not actually be reporting you out of spite- which is what a large chunk of us are trying to tell you..

I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense of 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous to think about. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.

(Not healing, and by extension raising, another player because you don't like their getting hurt/dying)

Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

[Padudu]

While I agree, I can understand why they don't as it adds a huge layer of busywork for the GMs and puts it firmly on them to sort out. Often it's very easy to reflect oneself, read the ToS and see "Ohhh I see that's what I did", then never need to file in the first place.

In my case I mocked a troll on the forum and got a 10 day ban for it. (Bravo to you, space-bunny-alien-fairy-person; you baited me and got me). Didn't realize that was what it was but I could figure it out in about 20-30 minutes of digging.

Oh yeah I 100% see where you're coming from with that and I can see why they don't exactly do it that way. I can see how it puts a lot of pressure on the GM when they're going to be dealing with someone who's going to be upset and frustrated from the get-go. I can't imagine the amount of abuse that the GMs must get towards certain people every day they log in. At the same time, it's their job. While they might not be able to give out a specifics of the report and what went down, there should be a better alternative than "well you get a warning, you wanna contest it appeal".

While I do agree that we should do some reflection every once in a while, especially after a report, it's not that easy. Don't get me wrong here-- I've done my fair share of naughty things, emote spamming and cursing in /say, or trolling just a bit too hard. If I get pulled into GM baby jail for that I can at least be aware of the fact that those things, or a combination of, is what got me the warning.

But for warnings like griefing, that becomes a bit more convoluted. What's griefing to you and to someone else may be different, sans obvious cases like the person who posted about their party member aiming the laser at other alliances at Puppet's Bunker. Heck, even in the comment the OP made about how they plays healer, people are divided on whether or not that constitutes griefing. People run duties multiple times a day, and I'd be hard pressed to remember my actions in every dungeon and whether or not the stuff I did counted as a reportable offense. People definitely need a GM to clarify what led to a warning like that, not just self-reflection.

I think we all have acted the fool at some point or another.

Honestly I think the really important takeaway from the thread is not the OPs guilt or innocence as much as it is it could happen to any of us that we incur a penalty and will never be told what we did to incur it. That is frankly a bit frightening.

I 100% agree with you here.

[Padudu]

No way! Are you serious?! Someone reported my ridiculous post and the mods deleted it? Oh, the irony. Lol.

If you can find the post again, requote it. I miss it already

[Kaurhz]

I am innocent. I haven't participated in 'grief tactics'. I complain about it constantly on here. Literally. I have gotten in arguments on here over what I think is griefing: the improper usage of rescue, RDM LB3 blinding players during mechanic heavy moments, etc.. The reason I vehemently defend my innocence is because, again, I did not do it. How I play the game isn't me "griefing", and I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here. I have barely put any effort in this vent. I have been posting now while doing my weekly raids, and eating breakfast. Yesterday, I think I only posted once in the morning.

I "ninja" edit just about every single thing I post, doesn't even matter what it was. I have talked about it before in other threads, people shouldn't think much on it.

I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances, that someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.


Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

Both a player reporting you and the GM sanctioning you would beg to differ and given how you've presented yourself on this very thread, it doesn't exactly put people in a position to really empathise with your venting. If you're innocent of it then the dispute process that was kindly recommended by another GM will yield some fruitful results. If it doesn't then, well, there seems to be a disparity between how you interpret ToS and what the ToS actually are. Regardless of the circumstance, how you raged doesn't exactly give you a good case to the people reading the thread. Did you miss the part where I said it was merely an example of something that would constitute as a violation? Furthermore, an infraction won't always be a recent behaviour, especially within the last few days. Depending on the volume it could date back weeks.

In fact, looking back at the first page. The only real question I have out of curiosity is whether you silently left, or whether you actually communicated why you were leaving. If it was the former then it leaves the motive up for debate. Whereas if you simply communicated "Sorry I can't play when my connection is this unreliable, I'll leave so it doesn't hinder the the run, bye", then it hardly leaves much in the room for debate. Communicating goes a long way.

I think of it because you elected to use that edit in order to omit what was otherwise a fairly comedic piece of text

[kaynide]

Except that it is a GMs job to sort out problems. So I have no sympathy on the busywork front.

I respectfully disagree; I feel it's their job to "maintain the peace" as it were and to adjudicate/execute the "law". While I do agree they could tell you once a report is filed, I don't think they should need to lead with a detailed report on what you did beyond what specific ToS line you broke.

Again, agree to disagree, and that's ok.

[Myrany]

I respectfully disagree; I feel it's their job to "maintain the peace" as it were and to adjudicate/execute the "law". While I do agree they could tell you once a report is filed, I don't think they should need to lead with a detailed report on what you did beyond what specific ToS line you broke.

Again, agree to disagree, and that's ok.

1st I believe the GM needs to do the research to be able to "maintain the peace" or adjudicate something properly.

2nd they do not have to give a detailed report. They do in my opinion need to give a bit more than "griefing." For example a general statement such as "a pattern of not healing your party" that would not single anyone out as the reporter and give the player enough to know what to work on in thier own behavior.

[kaynide]

I never stated that I outright am refusing to raise or heal people either, yet it seems to be a common accusation levied at me here.
Oh my God... I never said I refuse to heal. Why does this keep getting brought up?!

Yes, I think how I play healer could also be a general issue with players. They see me casting glare constantly and whine about it. They should have never died in the first place. It is not my place to sit here and babysit bad players. If they die it's their fault.

Seems to imply you are allowing people to die and once dead, leave them there. Even if not, a refusal to do raises is in the same vein. I'm not accusing you- I have no dog in this fight. I don't know any more than what is said here.

I'm simply trying to show you that you might not be innocent, and should that be the result of your appeal, I hope it doesn't make the world come crashing down around you.

I simply do not believe that in the vast majority of circumstances someone is reporting another out of some sort of sense of 'duty'. It's laughably ridiculous to think about. No, it's out of spite. If someone feels the need to report another for leaving a leveling dungeon, that is incredibly petty, in my opinion.

I have filed several reports in my years in game, never out of spite. Simply reporting obvious trolls being obvious or purposefully being idiots at the expense of others. I've reported people for being rude and leavnig mid dungeon (In particular a player with a mentor crown had a lot of rude things to say at a sprout for not understanding a boss mechanic). I simply do not put up with BS.

To the point: I believe most people don't play with any particular other player enough to even have spite towards them. Fine to disagree here though- I don't know the motives of others.

[Snorky]

Just file your appeal and get on with your life.