Warning for "Grief" Tactics?!

[Xaruko_Nexume]

It's part of the healer's job, to a reasonable point, and the "healers who choose not to heal" is very over-exaggerated from what I've seen, aside from very recently the people who recently who are trying out sage. I've really seen more of people assuming that they don't need to use personal mitigation, or just taking avoidable damage.

So what's not usually considered typical to heal through? if someone is standing off in Narnia, or every time the party is standing over HERE they insist on standing over THERE, or even worse is repeatedly standing in aoes, or standing next to the tank and eating TBs (repeatedly), then at a certain point you should be thinking about what you're doing wrong. It's not about punishment someone, or acting like God, it's more about their being rather selfish at that point.

The exception to all of the above is for sprouts or anyone who's new (CS).

I completely agree. In the half year Ive played 14, Ive only encountered the "I refuse to heal even though it will cause a wipe and cost all of us more time" once, and it was in aurum vale, with a group of at least half totally new people. But attitudes toward healing like the one exhibited by the OP are just intolerable and a blight on the game.

[Senn]

So what's not usually considered typical to heal through? if someone is standing off in Narnia, or every time the party is standing over HERE they insist on standing over THERE, or even worse is repeatedly standing in aoes, or standing next to the tank and eating TBs (repeatedly), then at a certain point you should be thinking about what you're doing wrong. It's not about punishment someone, or acting like God, it's more about their being rather selfish at that point.

How many deaths would it take for you to stop raising someone? I'm only curious, not trying to start anything. It's just that I have no recent memory of anyone dying more than 3 times in any of my parties. I mean, even twice is kind of rare.
I'm not talking about savage/extreme, that's a different story.

[TaleraRistain]

How many deaths would it take for you to stop raising someone? I'm only curious, not trying to start anything. It's just that I have no recent memory of anyone dying more than 3 times in any of my parties. I mean, even twice is kind of rare.
I'm not talking about savage/extreme, that's a different story.

You didn't direct this at me but I'm going to give my take since I do agree with IDontPetLalas on their examples. Sometimes there's someone that just can't stay off the floor and they're affecting your ability to adequately support the rest of the party. In those rare cases, they may need to stay dead until SC and MP allow for a quick raise. I might also consider mechanics coming up that I'm afraid they will raise right into. There is a period of invuln after a raise but a lot of people immediately move and that drops. And then they drop right away again.

In regards to being in Narnia, if I have a ranged or BLM over there and the party is here and needs my support, they may get a pity regen but my place is with the rest of the party and I can't put them at risk if that person chooses to be out of heal range.

[Senn]

Sometimes there's someone that just can't stay off the floor and they're affecting your ability to adequately support the rest of the party. In those rare cases, they may need to stay dead until SC and MP allow for a quick raise.

If you're under pressure and barely managing to keep people's HP up, this makes sense to do.

[IDontPetLalas]

You didn't direct this at me but I'm going to give my take since I do agree with IDontPetLalas on their examples. Sometimes there's someone that just can't stay off the floor and they're affecting your ability to adequately support the rest of the party. In those rare cases, they may need to stay dead until SC and MP allow for a quick raise. I might also consider mechanics coming up that I'm afraid they will raise right into. There is a period of invuln after a raise but a lot of people immediately move and that drops. And then they drop right away again.

In regards to being in Narnia, if I have a ranged or BLM over there and the party is here and needs my support, they may get a pity regen but my place is with the rest of the party and I can't put them at risk if that person chooses to be out of heal range.

How many deaths would it take for you to stop raising someone? I'm only curious, not trying to start anything. It's just that I have no recent memory of anyone dying more than 3 times in any of my parties. I mean, even twice is kind of rare.
I'm not talking about savage/extreme, that's a different story.

I honestly don't have a specific number, it really depends strictly upon the context. I also ask myself how I would feel, i can remember my first DR run (OI) and am eternally grateful to the very classy people who raised me without complaint. I can only assume that they could see that I really was doing my best.

Part of the context, and in fact the reason i said that the person was being selfish, is that there is a party to consider. What if a few people start to have a problems? I cannot spend all of my attention on one person. Sometimes that person can't just catch onto a mechanic, or has horrible lag, etc. Maybe they just need to watch from the floor or worst case- leave . I'm not going to criticize them. Anyone can have a bad day.

[Reality23]

It's part of the healer's job, to a reasonable point, and the "healers who choose not to heal" is very over-exaggerated from what I've seen, aside from very recently the people who recently who are trying out sage. I've really seen more of people assuming that they don't need to use personal mitigation, or just taking avoidable damage.

So what's not usually considered typical to heal through? if someone is standing off in Narnia, or every time the party is standing over HERE they insist on standing over THERE, or even worse is repeatedly standing in aoes, or standing next to the tank and eating TBs (repeatedly), then at a certain point you should be thinking about what you're doing wrong. It's not about punishment someone, or acting like God, it's more about their being rather selfish at that point.

The exception to all of the above is for sprouts or anyone who's new (CS).

I've done all 3 parts of the trinity and I tend to prefer tanking, but I have done my share of healer duty. I think the problem with healers having a bad attitude tends to come from those who get used to high end progression raiding and the attitudes which go with it which tend to be pretty toxic. I don't have the space here for a detailed analysis of the culture and environment, but there is an attitude that many healers can develop that their job is to keep the tank up only, and that DPS or other healers who take damage or die are not their issue due to expecting them to be able to avoid mechanics. Going from high end raiding to a more casual environment can be difficult when people forget that some of those mechanics are hard to avoid, as well designed boss fights make "don't stand in the fire" more difficult than it sounds by design. Fights are generally designed to be beatable by people with sub par skills, but part of what makes them beatable is the healers watching out for the group... which to be fair is harder than just watching a tank so can annoy people.

At any rate I also think a lot of healers get lucky and meet good people to begin with and then see that as the normal situation, so they wind up being shocked when they have to team with more ordinary people. The problem especially exists in games where healers are expected to DPS as well, and a lucky healer gets to run around mostly as second tier DPS for a long time and only do occasional healing, having been there for an emergency they never saw arise. In such cases I can sort of understand the culture shock and resentment of the normal state of affairs, but good healers to be eventually learn and adapt. This might be a big problem with FF 14 because from what I'm reading healers are expected to do 20% of the damage under normal circumstances, and with changes to game design some tanks are healing themselves so well they barely need any watching.

[IDontPetLalas]

[QUOTE=Reality23;5841406]snip
Secondly, your presumption is that high end raiders who heal will suddenly tunnel on only the tank? sure, that's possible. i really doubt it, they don't typically get to that point by developing bad habits. I really think that they prioritize the tank , just as they would prioritize themselves, which is a completely different thing. That doesn't mean their attention is exclusively on those 2 party members, nor does it have to be exclusively on healing throughout an encounter. The comment about mechanics being hard to avoid ? I'm not sure what you would expect. Healers are normally going to use various tools like aoe regens, shields, etc however at a certain point, if someone insists on collecting vulnerability stacks, or if they insist on having some on-shot mechanic dropped on them, their future isn't going to look too bright. That's on them.

However, where you go on to claim that " The problem especially exists in games where healers are expected to DPS as well,' considering that most games expect healers to DPS as well, and that healers are "shocked' when dealing with 'ordinary" people? along with 'culture shock and resentment" ? I honestly have no idea of what you're talking about. if anything, it's quite the reverse, sure there can be the exception, but from what i've seen the healers that join DF are typically expecting sprouts and people who consider that they're only being healed if they are at 100% health all of the time.

however, I'm a poor reference for healer woes, check this link - we still have the highest number of votes its seems - up to 90. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...tions%21/page9

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Secondly, your presumption is that high end raiders who heal will suddenly tunnel on only the tank? sure, that's possible. i really doubt it, they don't typically get to that point by developing bad habits. I really think that they prioritize the tank , just as they would prioritize themselves, which is a completely different thing. That doesn't mean their attention is exclusively on those 2 party members, nor does it have to be exclusively on healing throughout an encounter. The comment about mechanics being hard to avoid ? I'm not sure what you would expect. Healers are normally going to use various tools like aoe regens, shields, etc however at a certain point, if someone insists on collecting vulnerability stacks, or if they insist on having some on-shot mechanic dropped on them, their future isn't going to look too bright. That's on them.

However, where you go on to claim that " The problem especially exists in games where healers are expected to DPS as well,' considering that most games expect healers to DPS as well, and that healers are "shocked' when dealing with 'ordinary" people? along with 'culture shock and resentment" ? I honestly have no idea of what you're talking about. if anything, it's quite the reverse, sure there can be the exception, but from what i've seen the healers that join DF are typically expecting sprouts and people who consider that they're only being healed if they are at 100% health all of the time.

however, I'm a poor reference for healer woes, check this link - we still have the highest number of votes its seems - up to 90. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...tions%21/page9

If you're speaking of the most voted healer question, somebody from earlier page deleted... or have their post deleted for whatever reason so that question got moved to earlier page... found it: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5830484

[Larirawiel]

Ive healed in MMORPG's for about 20 years now. I will never understand those who sign up for the role of healing and then choose to not heal. They say it's not their job to cover for others mistakes...But that is literally a healers job.

Same for me. But i think, reporting people because it seems, that they do not know how to play a healer is exaggerated.


Cheers

[SturmChurro]

Ive healed in MMORPG's for about 20 years now. I will never understand those who sign up for the role of healing and then choose to not heal. They say it's not their job to cover for others mistakes...But that is literally a healers job.

Exactly where did I state I do not heal? I stated it wasn't my job to babysit players. I do heal players, and I do not withhold heals from players. I juggle healing with DPS, some players think I am not healing because they see me casting glare rather than cure 2, but in fact I do have other heals.

I find it hard to believe you considering the fact that you yourself has trolled ppl I know well.

This is news to me.