Modern Morality vs Game Setting

[Necrotica]

I like bad guys. I love villains. I enjoy watching evil people do evil things. But part of what makes good villains is having good heroes. If both sides are the same, it means it doesn't matter which side wins.

I bring this up because replaying MSQ, the good guys are very casual and accepting about how they torture prisoners for information. Sure they call it interrogation, but very often it is paired with 'they will break eventually'. And this isn't just the city states. Thancred seems proud of his ability to extract information from people.

Anyone we capture tends to slump down into a broken state knowing what awaits them.

Is this my modern morality of torture=bad or are we supposed to recognize that everyone is evil? Or is there a culture thing here where the writers think torturing a prisoner for info is okay?

[KariTheFox]

Refresh my memory, when in the msq did the scions take prisoners or torture them for information? Thancred in particular.

[Stepjam]

Yeah, I don't recall us ever torturing captives. Definitely gonna need a quest name for when that happens.

[Necrotica]

Thancred on the merchant that was selling people to the Amaljaa


Thancred
At this stage, I'm rather disinclined to believe aught that leaves your mouth. But no matter. There'll be time enough to learn the truth.
Ungust
<sob>
Thancred
Forename. Be a good man and take word of these developments to Minfilia, would you?

I shall prise everything I can out of this filth.


Also Lucia on the guy starting fires that we captured and turned over to her.

Lucia
On behalf of the Holy See of Ishgard, I thank you all. The man you apprehended is being interrogated as we speak. Though he fell silent upon realizing that we had not turned his master, he will soon tell us what he knows, one way or another.

and the Crystal Braves
Ilberd
He knew the precise route the caravan would take. And he sold that information to a merchant.
Alphinaud
I think I can guess which one...
Ilberd
None other. With a little encouragement, he soon confessed to knowingly aiding and abetting the heretics.

Suspicious Coerthan (For the Greater Good)
N-No! I have done no wrong!
Ilberd
None but meet in secret with heretics. Deny it all you will. We shall have the truth from you yet. Inquisitors are not the only ones skilled in the art of interrogation.

[KariTheFox]

Eh, the one with Thancred is a bit of a stretch, prying information from someone doesn't have to mean torture. Though I'm sure that Ishgard's inquistors employ those methods.

Oh, and Illberd absolutely tortured people when he was part of the Crystal Braves if that dialogue is any indication, but well - he wasn't really a good guy at all.

[Recon1o6]

its a little bit of both I think. Do remember that interrogations are a legitimate thing regardless of morality

torture is different, and what might be an acceptable interrogation technique to one person would not be to another.

[Necrotica]

Alphinaud was right there when Ilberd said that. And was okay with it. At no point did he speak up and say "The Scions don't stoop to such levels"

And we openly help governments that employ PROFESSIONAL torturers to get information from prisoners. We will say a particular inquisitor is corrupt and expose him as a fraud, but never address that such a position exists and that those methods are allowed and viewed as just.

I can fully appreciate the shades of gray, no nation is without flaws etc. But when the Scions want to portray themselves as this righteous group fighting to save the world, it would go down better if they at least mentioned that they disapprove of these practices.

[YianKutku]

But when the Scions want to portray themselves as this righteous group fighting to save the world

No they don't.

The Scions portray themselves as a group fighting to save the world, specifically from the threat of the Ascians, and by extension the Primals, since the Primals are what the Ascians were using to destabilize the world. More broadly, the Scions work "for the betterment of the realm".

Righteousness was never a core mission statement. Individual Scions are more comfortable with "righteous" methods, and they act based on their own personal morality, but even back in ARR the Scions know that everyone's definition of righteousness was different. (Hence Alphinaud going "fine, we'll make our own" with the Crystal Braves.)

Individual Scions usually go "I want to do what is right, by my own ideals and opinions", and the other Scions with them go "we agree, and we will help you". But that's not the same as being codified as official Scion rules.

[KariTheFox]

I mean, trusting and listening to Illberd was a mistake on Alphinaud's part for sure. And he later acknowledged that his time with the Crystal Braves involved a lot of poor judgement and mistakes on his part.

As for Ishgard, while the scions initially start by helping Ishgard and the Holy See against the heretics, they do eventually turn against the Holy See. So there's that.

Early on the scions do seem to be misled by the corrupt governments they are helping, but at least they seem willing to hear out both sides of a given conflict and investigate what is actually going on.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

No they don't.

The Scions portray themselves as a group fighting to save the world, specifically from the threat of the Ascians, and by extension the Primals, since the Primals are what the Ascians were using to destabilize the world. More broadly, the Scions work "for the betterment of the realm".

Righteousness was never a core mission statement. Individual Scions are more comfortable with "righteous" methods, and they act based on their own personal morality, but even back in ARR the Scions know that everyone's definition of righteousness was different. (Hence Alphinaud going "fine, we'll make our own" with the Crystal Braves.)

Individual Scions usually go "I want to do what is right, by my own ideals and opinions", and the other Scions with them go "we agree, and we will help you". But that's not the same as being codified as official Scion rules.

To paraphrase: Goody two-shoes save the day. Nothing and nobody gets sacrificed, and only the bad guys get any comeuppance for their stupid decisions no matter how dumb the decisions of the childishly naive heroes were, like letting Yotsuyu live (Heh, until she kicked the bucket anyway).

Good thing "my own ideals and opinions" are exactly the same for each and every one of the egregiously heroic NPCs.

Personally, i freaking WISH they'd torture people for information. You know, that they'd actually were willing to go to any length to achieve their goal, instead of leaving it all to be resolved by the WoL after they fuck up stopping yet another summoning, because their bleeding heart just couldn't take it if they did anything less than heroic.