Bring back Aggro, resource management, bring back consequences!

[Malthir]

If you want to make tanking challenging, then you have to work on making the positioning and survival elements more difficult.

You can't do that without aggro, again not saying it has to be the old system, I'm saying they should have reworked it. You cannot have tanks without aggro that is literally what a tank is for, without aggro you don't have a tank.

You also cannot create interesting mechanics for boss fights really because you never have to worry about aggro. An example is look at the difference between some of the Coils fights and modern fights. Essentially all MMO combat boils down to don't stand in aoe's, but because that becomes tedious and boring, games do things like add mobs that have to be moved to certain places and then be frozen to protect you from damage, carry orbs that do XYZ, or things like World of darkness Cerberus where the party needs to split. However because there is only really the need of one tank now in pretty much all fights, it's been reduced to it's base concept, tank has boss/any adds everyone avoid circles, it's a type of Flanderization where the game is being reduced to the base form of what an MMO is however that's seldom fun to play. You can't do decent positioning because you never need to worry about a tank not being bale to hold a specific mob in a specific location, aggro is guaranteed constantly so all positioning mechs with adds are redundant.

As a Drk it takes me a couple of seconds to grab an entire room worth of mobs I never have to worry anyone will take aggro so I'm free to run them round on leashes to any location I need. Why do you think dungeon design's been simplified, because the Devs know this. They are all corridors 2 packs to a room that from the first run even with basic on level gear you can wall to wall. In fact I don't think I've not wall to wall'd a dungeon in like 2-3 expacs now. Every dungeon all the time, I don't have to go slow, I don't have to think, I can run in press 3 buttons and then play a DPS class. Occasionally they make the off tank feel useful by immobilising the boss spawning 2 adds we walk to two different corners I hit one once, the other tank hits the other once gg wp all round.

[Alzinor]

You can't do that without aggro, again not saying it has to be the old system, I'm saying they should have reworked it. You cannot have tanks without aggro that is literally what a tank is for, without aggro you don't have a tank.

You also cannot create interesting mechanics for boss fights really because you never have to worry about aggro. An example is look at the difference between some of the Coils fights and modern fights. Essentially all MMO combat boils down to don't stand in aoe's, but because that becomes tedious and boring, games do things like add mobs that have to be moved to certain places and then be frozen to protect you from damage, carry orbs that do XYZ, or things like World of darkness Cerberus where the party needs to split. However because there is only really the need of one tank now in pretty much all fights, it's been reduced to it's base concept, tank has boss/any adds everyone avoid circles, it's a type of Flanderization where the game is being reduced to the base form of what an MMO is however that's seldom fun to play. You can't do decent positioning because you never need to worry about a tank not being bale to hold a specific mob in a specific location, aggro is guaranteed constantly so all positioning mechs with adds are redundant.

As a Drk it takes me a couple of seconds to grab an entire room worth of mobs I never have to worry anyone will take aggro so I'm free to run them round on leashes to any location I need. Why do you think dungeon design's been simplified, because the Devs know this. They are all corridors 2 packs to a room that from the first run even with basic on level gear you can wall to wall. In fact I don't think I've not wall to wall'd a dungeon in like 2-3 expacs now. Every dungeon all the time, I don't have to go slow, I don't have to think, I can run in press 3 buttons and then play a DPS class. Occasionally they make the off tank feel useful by immobilising the boss spawning 2 adds we walk to two different corners I hit one once, the other tank hits the other once gg wp all round.

I agree with making the off tank job and even the MT job more challenging, i disagree with the aggro generation back, tank already have to worry to many thing including moving boss in time, mitigate things, dodge stuff and do mechanics without f***** too much your melee mate and positionnals.
change and adjust on job and role are based on savage content, since you lack of experience on them you can't know but i can tell you that you have already enough thing to do and i would feel aggro generation return as a painful mechanics without any upgraded difficulty, just an annoying change.

dungeon design has been simplified to prevent people from skipping pack like you can do in old dungeon or pull everything until boss room with endgame gears and clean the dungeon in 5 min, not to make them more easy.

[Malthir]

I agree with making the off tank job and even the MT job more challenging, i disagree with the aggro generation back, tank already have to worry to many thing including moving boss in time, mitigate things, dodge stuff and do mechanics without f***** too much your melee mate and positionnals.
change and adjust on job and role are based on savage content, since you lack of experience on them you can't know but i can tell you that you have already enough thing to do and i would feel aggro generation return as a painful mechanics without any upgraded difficulty, just an annoying change.

dungeon design has been simplified to prevent people from skipping pack like you can do in old dungeon or pull everything until boss room with endgame gears and clean the dungeon in 5 min, not to make them more easy.

I wasn't trying to say they've designed them to be easy. I'm saying they've designed them that way, because we literally wall to wall pull. There's no point in doing any major dungeon mechs, we wall to wall cause we can wall to wall, so dungeon design reflects play. Why can we wall to wall so easy (by easy I mean as an on gear level character not maxed out) because we have infinite resource, because aggro is never an issue, because there is next to no penalty when you mess up. By in large most classes have no resource management anymore, all classes are becoming a meter build and spend class.

It's a bad idea to focus on the savage and extremes for balance for the same reason I've mainly been referring to dungeons. Dungeons are the majority of what is ran by the player base, it is the content that is most seen and it is functionally the same experience as the levelling experience in the game. Players will spend more time in dungeons collectively throughout the life of the game than they will in savages and extremes. Balancing your game for the lets say 10% of the content and leaving the rest bare, you will end up alienating your player base, most of their time is spent in tedious activities and I would not be surprised if you find close to 80% of the player base never step foot in savage or extremes.

Outside of the savage and extremes there's not a single bit of content that you can't run while only paying a tiny fraction of attention to it, even brand new content dungeons are auto pilot runnable. The game is no longer engaging, bar the MSQ

[Alzinor]

I wasn't trying to say they've designed them to be easy. I'm saying they've designed them that way, because we literally wall to wall pull. There's no point in doing any major dungeon mechs, we wall to wall cause we can wall to wall, so dungeon design reflects play. Why can we wall to wall so easy (by easy I mean as an on gear level character not maxed out) because we have infinite resource, because aggro is never an issue, because there is next to no penalty when you mess up. By in large most classes have no resource management anymore, all classes are becoming a meter build and spend class.

It's a bad idea to focus on the savage and extremes for balance for the same reason I've mainly been referring to dungeons. Dungeons are the majority of what is ran by the player base, it is the content that is most seen and it is functionally the same experience as the levelling experience in the game. Players will spend more time in dungeons collectively throughout the life of the game than they will in savages and extremes. Balancing your game for the lets say 10% of the content and leaving the rest bare, you will end up alienating your player base, most of their time is spent in tedious activities and I would not be surprised if you find close to 80% of the player base never step foot in savage or extremes.

Outside of the savage and extremes there's not a single bit of content that you can't run while only paying a tiny fraction of attention to it, even brand new content dungeons are auto pilot runnable. The game is no longer engaging, bar the MSQ

I think you forgot something : despite the fact it's a mmo, FFXIV is a RPG and even more, a final fantasy games.

it have to keep easy content for story, that's why ultimate and savage are a thing, for player in seek of challenge outside the STORY content.

there is no need to make dungeons harder, you say it yourself : dungeons are ran by a majority of player and the majority in FF is casual and is not looking for any challenge + dungeons are part of MSQ or a side quest one but still, for story.

It is not a bad idea to focus the balance change and job adjust on the most difficult content, if you use NM or dungeons as standard for balance, you'll end up with unecessary nerf. That's why savage like any mmo with heroic, mythic etc is the standard used to apply change and balance jobs

[Mikey_R]

Aggro
Originally Dps could pull aggro off a bad tank, not all moves gave enmity and if I remember correctly most of those moves only gave enmity while in tank stance. This added consequences to the game, DPS and healers had to use moves to lower their aggro.

Tanks stance wasn't perfect, and at high-end ARR the meta was to tank without it. However removing it was a terrible plan IMO. Instead they should have made aggro gain more difficult if you weren't stance switching, made tank stance OGCD and then in each expansion they could have focused each tank classes mechanics around their stance and subsequently TP which I'll get onto next.

The only things that gave enmity were the long range attack (Shield Lob etc.), the AoE combo and a specific enmity combo. Tank stances worked as they did now, providing an enmity multiplier on all damage, whilst reducing damage done and received (extra HP and healing on Warrior). DPS stances were different, PLD was a double auto attack, DRK was a damage increase, which could be used with Grit and Deliverance had a crit increase and allowed Fell Cleave (over Inner Beast) and Decimate (Over Steel Cyclone).

The issue comes from the fact your enmity combo did NOT produce resources, MP/Beast Stacks, so you reduced your effectiveness in combat significantly if you ever needed to do it. Now, tanks were balanced so that, if you had your tank stance on, you could do your normal DPS rotation without the need for DPS stance at all, however, if you were in DPS stance, you would need to use your enmity combos to keep enmity. So, the goal was, get an enmity lead, then switch to DPS stance and continue to DPS. IF you wanted to look from a DPS point of view, IIRC, it went something like: DPS stance, Enmity combo < Tank Stance, DPS Combo < DPS Stance, DPS Combo. There was no need for the enmity combo as you always had a situation where you could do more damage and this is purely down to the resource given by the DPS stance.

You could make an argument that, you gave your enmity combo the additional resource generation, but then I counter with, what is the point in having 2 combos that essentially do the same thing, just with different damage? That is the definition of redundant, which is why tank stances have probably turned out how they have now. It also means you do not waste actions on things that do not get used and instead use them for something more useful.

That is purely from the tank side, so what about if we include everyone else? Take the old system, you have Diversion and Lucid Dreaming (and IIRC Quelling Strikes) to reduce enmity. You, as a tank, know you can keep enmity in DPS stance, you open with an enmity combo which should last this whole fight, it's only a dungeon boss after all, it'll be dead before it is an issue, however, your DPS also has to make use of their enmity reduction tools for the ride to be smooth. However, in this instance, they don't. You would then have to reduce your damage output, due to no fault of your own, how is that fair? As a tank, I am being punished for the laziness of the DPS. This isn't a deep system, or one that makes you think in a good way, this is literally, are my DPS being lazy or not. Even going to the DPS side, there are plenty of DPS that currently have no nice place to put Diversion/Lucid Dreaming into their rotation without it getting in the way. This also doesn't even take into account the enmity manipulation that Ninja gets. Do you balance around Ninja or not? This again takes away from actions which could be used elsewhere to enhance the DPS rotation.

And we are still only scratching the surface of potential issues. Even with your comment on making 'aggro gain more difficult if you weren't stance switching', this implies that, you would need to switch between 2 stances at periods throughout the fight to refresh, I don't know, diminishing returns probably, but how does the enhance the tank experience? It doesn't, it is just another button to add to the rotation because, well, why not. It would be unnecessary busy work. As for other issues, how do you compensate for different skill levels, gear levels etc. as these all have an impact on how you balance the enmity generation and you have to remember, this isn't just for raids, this also has to apply to dungeons.

No, if you want tanking to be more engaging, you need to add more things that the tank has to interact with. Proper boss positioning, making sure you not only move the boss to the right place, but also taking into account the melees being able to hit what they need. Maybe the OT has an add that needs to die in a certain spot, or even just hold it in a certain spot whilst a mechanic comes out based on it's positioning. This next one would probably require a change in how enemy actions are used, but since every tank has a stun and interrupt, allow the tanks to utilise them. Think of an AoE that does damage and bleed, you stun, it juts does the damage, or you interrupt, it just does the bleed. I don't think the capability is there for the battle system to allow that, but it is something that would make the tanks utilise their actions more. Tanks should be about manipulating the boss and the environment to make everyone else's life easier and that is what they need to focus on.

[Payadopa]

I agree. I'd love to manage aggro or resources again.

[Shurrikhan]

Bring back aggro?

Nah. Not unless you're completely reworking how tanking works. So long as it's just a matter of keeping one's throughput-time-modifier at the top of a table, skills which manipulate those modifiers will only ever, ultimately, be bloat, especially in the context of larger fights.

Rework it from the ground up such that tanking actually involves actively holding the enemy's attention and thwarting its offensive efforts against the party, rather than merely doing damage under tank mods and aiming enemies away? I'd be cool with that, but I doubt most would. The added cognitive load might cause their per-minute rotation to drift by a quarter-GCD, and we can't have that (even if it'd therefore take 8 minutes for such to actually push any significant skill out of raid windows).

[Undeadfire]

Fun fact in 2.0, certain races gained more enmity than others.

Seriously though, aggro mechanics were more annoying than being useful, it's system relied on your team mates using their own minus enmity abilities than having to spam more enmity+ because team mates are too lazy to push a free button. Nin in HW fixed enmity issues and allowed tanks more DPS value than more enmity abilities because of the sheer aggro Blm/Melee/Whm pulled. DPS focused combos had more potency than enmity abilities.

[Tlamila]

No thanks, I always hated having to manage aggro, in this game and in others. dpses having to hold their dps, healers having to hold their heals, lucid dreaming on cd, and stuff like that added nothing fun to the game, just a clunky outdated mechanic I was very happy to see gone.
Fighting with the rest of the group for aggro doesn't make a tank imho; positioning enemies correctly, mitigating properly for both yourself and the group, being slapped in the face so that your party doesn't have to, that's what makes a tank for me. Someone who protects the party, not someone who tries to win at aggro ping pong against them.

[Canadane]

Tanking peaked in Stormblood.
I would love to go back to that enmity management any day.