Does 14 Promote a Culture of Mediocrity?

[MidnightEquinox]

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Petition to close this thread and open a new one on the pros and cons of FFXIV DDR endgame.

[Kaurhz]

Please stop typing out multiple paragraphs and being passive aggressive the entire time, while making no actual point with them. You are not being honest, and it shows.

Why are you randomly talking about clear parties? In what clear party are people face tanking?

You are also making up scenarios I was never in and do not apply to the face tank scenario I gave.

If you think that constitutes as passive aggressive then you ought to rethink how soft your skin is, especially taking into account you yourself first elected to attempt to undermine my understanding or knowing on the difficulty, ease or impact of informal teaching, I just responded in kind and presented several scenarios to help reinforce the point I was making If anything I'm just responding in a blunt and straightforward manner. If you can't respond with a rebuttal and supporting it with examples, be it native to your original point or with several very common and realistic applicable examples, then simply don't respond. Furthermore, points were included within them, you just elected to ignore them because you can't refute them, simple as.

I mentioned them to reinforce the points I was making, just as you were when you elected to mention about people face tanking. But if you want to use that example then it's hardly about adaptability and just simply an unwillingness to learn because they didn't go in with that expectancy. Linking back to another poster wherein it is not suitable to teach because the environment or expectation wasn't established in advanced. I get it you try and want to be helpful but simply read the room and grasp whether they're open to the idea.

No they apply to the point I was making, you know, much like your scenario of face tanking. You used that as an example in order to attempt to support your point. Not unlike what I was doing. Don't attempt to undermine the examples as being made-up when they're fairly common-place in itself. Why do you think some people just aren't inclined to learn or present an aggressive stance when you try to 'teach' - Because that expectation wasn't established beforehand. - The fact people on this forum are very much of the belief that people on this game can't handle criticism of their ability nor playstyle (whether aggressively, or empathetically done) just supports this. This is why it's just as important in informal teaching as to what it is in formal teaching for the vast majority of people.

[Brownondorf]

FF14 is a sandbox MMO, it's designed for EVERYONE. There's content for all skill level.
But the truth is simply that there's a massive amount of unskilled and stubborn player in the game. And a lot of white knights and enablers.
So many people can't to their rotation, can't read their skills, can't dodge anything, the cure1 bots, the "you pull you tank" players, the NOdps Sages... and so many people that defend that "bUt iTs fInE wE cAn ClEAr tHe CoNtent AnYWay DoNt Be tOXic bla bla bla"
There's a difference between being a toxic elitist and expecting people to play at a decent level by the time they reach the lvl90 dungeon...
Do you really think it's ok to do expert roulette in 30+ minutes because the healer is spamming cure 1, the tank is doing small pulls and the dps only know to do their 1-2-3 combo when it's easily beatable in less than 20 minutes by playing at a decent level?
Why there so much people ok with this is beyond me...

[IdowhatIwant]

In all honesty this games been developed for casuals, caters to casuals, and has very limited challenging content for those who prefer this. Sadly this was not always the case but this is where we have landed. And If anyone mentions there should be more hard core content, it immediately gets shut down.

[Zsolen]

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The soft skin comment is passive aggressive also. It's doesn't matter if I can handle it or not. There is no excuse for your behavior. Nothing you have said was straight forward. All you did was hide behind words. I was the only one being forward in my responses.

You can't fool someone actually trained in this sort of thing. It's pretty clear you either are not or completely forgot.

The example of a face tank was something I personally experienced, and I was very considerate about it. You are giving examples and applying those examples to me, which is completely unfair as they do not apply to me. Here is an example of something that does happen: There was one player that died a lot in one of the ShB 24 mans. I was healing, and they asked not to be rezzed and claimed that they were bad (meaning they didn't deserve the mana used on them). I told them I was still willing to rez and not to worry about dying more. I even explained a few things. They started to learn some of the mechanics. They still failed some of the latter mechanics on the last boss, but they kept at it from then on. The whole party was telling them how proud they were at the end of the raid for sticking it out and being a team player. But I guess that's just toxic behavior to you.

You keep acting like my advice falls on deaf ears. It often doesn't. MMOS are meant to be cooperative. If you are unwilling, play something else. This goes more so for people that intentionally throw PvP matches and AFK. You can teach people in it but the ones that don't try and don't care are very toxic, which was my original point. What goal post will you move next? I wonder.

[Lily_Skye]

FF14 is a sandbox MMO, it's designed for EVERYONE. There's content for all skill level.
But the truth is simply that there's a massive amount of unskilled and stubborn player in the game. And a lot of white knights and enablers.
So many people can't to their rotation, can't read their skills, can't dodge anything, the cure1 bots, the "you pull you tank" players, the NOdps Sages... and so many people that defend that "bUt iTs fInE wE cAn ClEAr tHe CoNtent AnYWay DoNt Be tOXic bla bla bla"
There's a difference between being a toxic elitist and expecting people to play at a decent level by the time they reach the lvl90 dungeon...
Do you really think it's ok to do expert roulette in 30+ minutes because the healer is spamming cure 1, the tank is doing small pulls and the dps only know to do their 1-2-3 combo when it's easily beatable in less than 20 minutes by playing at a decent level?
Why there so much people ok with this is beyond me...

??? FFXIV is a themepark MMO lol

BDO is a sandbox MMO

[MidnightEquinox]

You can't fool someone actually trained in this sort of thing. It's pretty clear you either are not or completely forgot.

Haha, are you serious?

Gotta say my confidence in the teaching ability of someone who's beating their chest this aggressively instead of just engaging with the arguments provided is... not high.

[Zsolen]

Haha, are you serious?

Gotta say my confidence in the teaching ability of someone who's beating their chest this aggressively instead of just engaging with the arguments provided is... not high.

What arguments? What chest beating? For giving an example of teaching working? Anyone can teach. It's nothing to boast about.

If this individual doesn't know how I interact with others in game, they really can't speak about how I teach or if it is effective.

I made a point to a completely different person (you I think; correct me if I'm wrong) and they took issue with it without actually saying anything of substance. That's par for the course on these forums but not in game. It's much easier to have real discussions there than here, because most people don't doubt your intentions to help in game. The entire purpose of having mentors was to do this sort of thing, although that went south. It went south, because many mentors were unwilling to help at all.

[Kaurhz]

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Yes it was. Let me simplify this as much as possible:
- People are generally not going into instances with the intent of learning. Thus you're presented with backlash when you provided criticism (whether politely or otherwise). For this reason your whole show of "People always learning" doesn't necessarily apply. As per another factor you're skipping the whole environmental setup.
- You cannot go into the expectation of teaching in a half-hearted manner because you want a duty to go faster. This invariably only causes both individuals to become angry and unconducive to actually clearing the fight as promptly. Further to this it just creates many of the stigmas and generalisations - "Casual don't like being criticised" - "This community is immune to feedback" - These stigmas and generalisations inevitably lead to an "Us vs Them".
- Unsolicited advice and help generally only causes backlash. Whilst not disrespectful, intentionally anyway. Many people interpret this as being rude and respond according to that.
- Many people teaching on an unexpected basis are doing so with an expectation that the results will be nigh on immediate, a lot of people want others to learn quickly. This is often not the case and when the concern is getting the duty completed as fast as possible this is just unconducive to that. Many people will get angry and that's as much as it amounts to. <- This here is why I made the whole comparison with clear parties and learning parties.

For these reasons above I highlighted all as reasons as to disagree with your argument that anyone can teach. You could not expand on this barring to say "But simple". Even going as far to try and play make-belief that no points were made..

I'm not attempting to fool you. Given that you've ignored the whole environment and given that you seem painstakingly unaware of the consequences of such and continue with the insistence that teaching is not difficult just clearly shows you're the one here who is out of touch. Don't bother making these remarks as a poor attempt at trying to undermine the argument. You've been unable to relate it, you've underexplained and quite clearly only used it intentionally to undermine the argument without even having a courtesy of explaining.

Yes and the examples that I went with have been examples that I have personally come across, and they have equally been widely adopted within the forum itself quite apparently. Heck, I can even take a browse on a certain subreddit and find more relation to these points. You're just trying to create a double standard here in that you can seemingly adopt your own personal examples and expect them to apply to other individuals whilst not extending the same courtesy to people counterarguing your points. Honestly.. There are limits here. Either accept the points or counterargue them. I'm not entirely sure where you're fabricating these from but our original discussion on whether anyone can teach. Of which I counterargued this to say no they cannot if they go into the endeavour half-heartedly. - I'm pretty sure I've made no remarks on the effectiveness of your own methods, just merely explained the implications of why anyone cannot teach.

Don't bother trying to misconstrue the argument to me equating teaching to a toxic behaviour. Stating the obvious here but teaching in itself is not inherently toxic of which we can both agree with, but when it is done in an unsolicited fashion, and equally when that teaching is being underpinned by frustration then it generally leads to a toxic environment. Also don't use buzz-phrases that don't even remotely apply to the discussion in a thinly-veiled attempt to dismiss the argument being made. Either address it or don't. You've hardly addressed any of the arguments I've made, to be quite honest.

I feel like you feel as though I've been personally attacking you or your teaching, to which I have not. I've engaged in all of this discussion with you to try and inform you of the implication and reality of why not anyone can teach.

[Illmaeran]

And If anyone mentions there should be more hard core content, it immediately gets shut down.

After reading a number of those threads, I believe it's the way the OP (of those threads) words their sentiment more than the quantity of "enablers". It's easy to mis-read "Content is Braindead Easy, We Need More Challenges" as "All Content Is Too Easy, Increase The Difficulty of Everything". That will/does bring people who prefer and will defend the current level of challenge in the game out to assert their points of view. We all know how that ends up...

I'm super casual, have reached my effective limit on improvement, and would be one of the people one might consider a Toxic Casual. I embrace the design philosophy of making sure the majority of group content has a low bar because a lot of the player base prefers it. Essentially, Roulettes and DF should continue to be the place people with modest ability go for group stuff. Extremes, Savages, and Ultimates are the content for people seeking additional challenge.

I believe people should seek to improve out of respect for their fellows, but not to a high-end raiding level. Everyone has their individual capability and everyone should seek to understand and accept that. I can't play effectively past Normal Raid and EX trial levels so I stay away from stuff past that. That's how I respect people playing more difficult content. Not complaining about and being insulting toward people like me is how Challenge-Seekers should respect the rest of the player base.

Should there be more hardcore content? I'm under the impression that Ultimates are about as hard as the dev team can make raids/trials. I've never even set foot in a Savage, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken. They already cater to a very small portion of the player base so I'm not sure making something for an even smaller group makes sense from a resource management standpoint. If they can make Ultimates even harder without expending additional resources that could be used on other projects, absolutely, do it. Should that not be possible, then no. Those resources would be better spent on things a larger portion of players will interact with and enjoy.

This game has always been fundamentally Casual-Friendly With Some Hard Content. Encouraging a culture of "mediocrity" originated with the development team's design philosophy, not the players. That design philosophy attracted and retained people who appreciated that sort of experience, which is what's led to the belief that the community as a whole embraces and defends "Toxic Casualism" and "Piss-Poor-Play". We've stuck with the game because we want a relaxed and "EZ-Mode" experience, with options for people to experience more challenging content, over the trends toward ever-increasingly difficult content to the exclusion of other content seen in other games. To be blunt, most of us are tired of the consistent complaints about lack of hardcore content and players' general lack of skill; especially from people who've come to the game in the past year or two.

So yes, it's not surprising that the people who love this game due to the intention choices of the development team get riled up by those decrying the continual decline in player ability and a general unwillingness to improve. This is exacerbated by the tendency of people complaining about the lack of challenge include abrasive commentary about the decaying level of skill across the player base. Such language would get anyone riled up if it were aimed at them.

If you want challenge, please seek it in Party Finder, FC groups, and statics running Savage or Ultimates. Please leave Dungeon Finder; the mechanism expressly intended to draw from the entire player population, alone if you're encountering more "Filthy Casuals" than you would like.