Summoner - Why the new "buffs" are not working

[Aikaal]

Raise is an invaluable progression tool, which means for the important part of a fight (the learning part) for serious progression groups SMN or RDM is invaluable. This forces BLM to compete with the prospect of taking a second melee instead. Is melee damage too high? Maybe, but the premise of my argument is that BLM needs to be at parity with melee not the other casters.

I'm gonna sound a bit rude and I hope I'm not but, on SMN, when my group on progression has been good enough on a phase of a fight, I simply don't hold swiftcast so if someone mess up it's not available.

Also, Mantra doesn't seems to be taxed as a support ability. If Raise warrants a 7% to 8% DPS difference, then you're saying RDM should be doing a lot less DPS than SMN and I doubt any RDM main would agree there. Because their raise is on demand. SMN raise is basically once per minute if Swiftcast is up. Also, remember that raise is essentially a damage loss that enables further progression. It's not something both SMN / RDM appreciate. This also gets entirely invalidate once progression is over. I don't think you can make a strong case that BLM deserves melee equivalent DPS. It should be higher than SMN/RDM but not more than 300 which is like 2% to 3%.

Also, the reason why the devs buffed Fire IV was to suggest BLMs not to use the Paradox rotation. Because it's too hard to code that Despair burns all your Umbral Heart stacks like Flare I guess. Wouldn't even be a nerf, it's be a fix imho.

[tearagion]

I'm gonna sound a bit rude and I hope I'm not but, on SMN, when my group on progression has been good enough on a phase of a fight, I simply don't hold swiftcast so if someone mess up it's not available.

Also, Mantra doesn't seems to be taxed as a support ability. If Raise warrants a 7% to 8% DPS difference, then you're saying RDM should be doing a lot less DPS than SMN and I doubt any RDM main would agree there. Because their raise is on demand. SMN raise is basically once per minute if Swiftcast is up. Also, remember that raise is essentially a damage loss that enables further progression. It's not something both SMN / RDM appreciate. This also gets entirely invalidate once progression is over. I don't think you can make a strong case that BLM deserves melee equivalent DPS. It should be higher than SMN/RDM but not more than 300 which is like 2% to 3%.

Also, the reason why the devs buffed Fire IV was to suggest BLMs not to use the Paradox rotation. Because it's too hard to code that Despair burns all your Umbral Heart stacks like Flare I guess. Wouldn't even be a nerf, it's be a fix imho.

Believe me, I had the same qualm with res being a DPS tax when I used to play SMN at the end of ShB. I put in more effort than a SAM and was rewarded with notably lower DPS because of devotion (one of the worst raidbuffs at the time) and raise (useless when an encounter is learned). I'm not saying I personally agree, just that I understand from the developer perspective that this is a reasonable way to balance.

In terms of Mantra, I do think it's an outlier for power budgeting, but rather than kneecap MNK I'd much rather every class had a notable utility for the raid (like raise for RDM+SMN, Arcane Crest for RPR, Curing Waltz, Nature's Minne+Warden's Paean though those 2 are significantly less useful) to play around and push out more raid potency when well used.

I will stay on the hill of BLM deserving melee level DPS though. It works around typically more stringent requirements than modern melee and doesn't provide utility. Accessing mobility outside of the 2mins is a DPS loss in a vacuum for BLM (though a logical choice to maintain DPS in that encounter). Really from my perspective following the logic back, I think the other casters lacking these positional requirements and possessing great utility combined make this balance more reasonable. If SMN had BLM positioning and rotational requirements I would fully support it being brought up to NIN levels minimum.

Fire IV rotation always dealt more damage, and I'm glad they're willing to push it more with balance patches. My preferred change would be increasing the transpose CD as this would also curtail alternate lines that rely on either counting or addons to accurately hit mana regen ticks, though this would be a more contentious change. I think that that variety of deviation-from-standard gameplay would be better delivered through nuanced abilities than counting to three.

[Gruntler]

Fire IV rotation always dealt more damage, and I'm glad they're willing to push it more with balance patches. My preferred change would be increasing the transpose CD as this would also curtail alternate lines that rely on either counting or addons to accurately hit mana regen ticks, though this would be a more contentious change. I think that that variety of deviation-from-standard gameplay would be better delivered through nuanced abilities than counting to three.

To be fair, the problem was two-fold. BLM wasn't putting out quite enough damage AND they were starting to gravitate towards a degenerate meme rotation. When presented with those twin problems, solving the former (buffing BLM's damage suite) happening to solve the latter is win/win, whereas fixing transpose would have done nothing to solve the bigger problem.

This also gets entirely invalidate once progression is over.

This might be a hard truth pill to swallow but SE's never balanced based on farm parse parties, they balance based on the requirements to get your party to farm which includes a) the first clear, and b) clean up on subsequent clears. Once that total progression is over, you can go in with 8 warriors and SE will give less than 1/8 of a fuck per warrior, totally a total number of fucks given of less than a single fuck, so long as things don't get absolutely degen.

So RDM paying something for its ability to raise (which still matters in pugs, where the 'clean up' still happens even in week 20) still makes sense from their standpoint. We can argue about how much, but the fact is, RDM steals clears and makes parties more reliable and if they balance based on clear rates, RDM will be balanced on those lines. As a caster, it has the casting design tension so it still has to work around mechanics so that puts a negative pressure on their clear rates. So this is why RDM doesn't do massive damage, but it's never going to be doing ranged damage.

Contrast with 6.0-6.1 when RDM did absolutely dumpster damage and they had missed the mark in the low direction and had to keep buffing RDM to where they felt it was no longer a liability to clear, using data they have that is more exact and has more metrics than FFLogs (by necessity, FFlogs does its heckin best with what it gets, but there's a limit to accuracy it can possibly have)

[Oxidized]

To be fair, the problem was two-fold. BLM wasn't putting out quite enough damage AND they were starting to gravitate towards a degenerate meme rotation. When presented with those twin problems, solving the former (buffing BLM's damage suite) happening to solve the latter is win/win, whereas fixing transpose would have done nothing to solve the bigger problem.

The problem in 6.05 was not "BLM is not putting out enough damage" as much as it was a "melee (particularly MNK and RPR) DPS are doing too much damage". They chose the buffing route instead of the much easier nerfing route. As a result, they buffed BLM more than SMN, leaving them in an ironically worse spot in relative terms and caused RDM to be put in an equally-unfavorable spot.

[tearagion]

To be fair, the problem was two-fold. BLM wasn't putting out quite enough damage AND they were starting to gravitate towards a degenerate meme rotation. When presented with those twin problems, solving the former (buffing BLM's damage suite) happening to solve the latter is win/win, whereas fixing transpose would have done nothing to solve the bigger problem.

Yes, I like the F4 buff. I also think transpose cd increase solves problems, the problems just aren't a big deal at all (2% max potency gains over 8 GCDs kind of magnitude, but less mobile usually). They also aren't strictly bad and are a way for excellent BLM players to push themselves even further. I wouldn't want it changed until something is introduced that delivers similar gameplay without being obscured by regen ticks.

[Aikaal]

Raise is an invaluable progression tool, which means for the important part of a fight (the learning part) for serious progression groups SMN or RDM is invaluable. This forces BLM to compete with the prospect of taking a second melee instead. Is melee damage too high? Maybe, but the premise of my argument is that BLM needs to be at parity with melee not the other casters.

Raise isn't necessary. More often that my healers tell me to keep DPS that they'll raise in my group. My healers rarely die to mechanics. I reckon I could just go on BLM with them and I would provide better support by doing more raw damage. The reality is prog doesn't last forever. Raise is useful but doesn,t warrant a 7% DPS difference to BLM.

By saying BLM needs to do competitive melee damage, you also default this to MCH. If MCH was doing the same DPS than BLM, it would straight invalidate BRD and DNC. Don't forget the most invaluable asset you provide to a group is your damage.

Why did TPS went DRK + GNB? It wasn't because WAR was bad. It's because these tanks were the best damage value. Why did they go SCH + AST? They provided the best DPS options. The only reason they went RPR/BRD/RDM/BLM was because they wanted a third ranged over a second melee. Otherwise it would have been RPR/MNK/BRD/RDM for the race and immediately swap RDM to BLM after. Yeah, Raise is good. I won't deny that, but that's kind of useless once you've cleared. RDM is still popular because of the raise right now but I would make a case that BLM could just bring more than SMN.

Because SMN raise is based if you hold swiftcast. Btw, you don't always. You swiftcast on the burst window. If you swift a raise and it's not up on the next burst window, you lose valuable damage. A lot more than RDM. SMN is already doing less damage than RDM and that swiftcast enables a 610 potency skill in the buff windows instead of a 430/480. Because the raise is restricted, it loses significant value. I reckon that doesn't give a proper reason why BLM is 7% ahead sitting with melees.

You also seems to forget that because any damage issue, SMN rework is broken and needs a rework

Yes, I like the F4 buff. I also think transpose cd increase solves problems, the problems just aren't a big deal at all (2% max potency gains over 8 GCDs kind of magnitude, but less mobile usually). They also aren't strictly bad and are a way for excellent BLM players to push themselves even further. I wouldn't want it changed until something is introduced that delivers similar gameplay without being obscured by regen ticks.

The proper way to kill the Paradox Rotation is make that Despair burns all Umbral Hearts, like Flare.

[XmissionsX]

The changes to other classes did work, dps wise some classes moved up or down, sadly for smn it’s worse smn even dropped another spot. Only dancer and machinist are now lower dps.

Smn is now about 10 procent lower dps then the top dps class. At max percentile smn is even second lowest.

[Shiroe]

1) Omg YES, Yoshi please fix Searing Light!(let it be usable any time!)
2) Dps is way too low for what it brings to the table, besides Searing

Sometimes rez issues due to heavy MP consumption (still useful in early/ mid prog, later in fights MP issues can arise)
....
Imo either just buff Searing Light (maybe double it and cut its CD in half.. maybe it will atleast becomes the "Nin" of casters).
OR just straight up buff Sm skill potencyies...
Buffing Searing light might be easier to balance around (but if SL gets buffed, SE needs to fix it's usage in the Smn rota)

[Phaty]

The BLM buff was the most perplexing part of the patch. I guess being Yoshi-Ps preferred job really pays off huh?

Yea. The thing with the blm buffs were the fire buffs triple dip with the AF and eno modifiers. As a blm main all it needed was the xeno buff

[Gruntler]

The problem in 6.05 was not "BLM is not putting out enough damage"

Yoshi-P explicitly said BLM wasn't putting out enough damage. Do I believe the lead director, or some guy on the forums?

as much as it was a "melee (particularly MNK and RPR) DPS are doing too much damage".

Yoshi-P did not say that and you know it. He said RPR damage was actually where it should be and that other jobs were being adjusted to be in line with where they are supposed to. Jobs were underperforming in content.

They chose the buffing route instead of the much easier nerfing route.

Because they balance relative to content, not relative to FFLogs rankings. If 'Job A is underperforming relative to Job B' on FFLogs it doesn't mean that Job A is undertuned or Job B is overtuned relative to content (you know, the thing that actually matters for balance) but it means that some adjustment needs to be made. If Job B is doing what they want it to in content, nerfing it makes no sense. If Job A is performing where it should relative to content and Job B is overperforming it makes sense to nerf Job B otherwise you nerf content through buff creep.

As a result, they buffed BLM more than SMN, leaving them in an ironically worse spot in relative terms and caused RDM to be put in an equally-unfavorable spot.

RDM is the second most played job in the game in savage clears AFTER buffs. RDM's literally not even close to a worry on anyone's mind.