Bring Cleric stance back

**Kranel_San** · 01-29-2022 04:12 AM

I understand they removed it for balancing purposes, but I think it would be cool if healers can get the cleric stance back. However, for said balancing purposes. It would work similarly to BLU basic instinct where it only boosts the damage outside instances & Parties.
Same for tank stance. It can boost the tanks' damage outside instances & parties but once they join one the damage increase will be gone.

**RecoveryPotion** · 01-29-2022 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I understand they removed it for balancing purposes, but I think it would be cool if healers can get the cleric stance back. However, for said balancing purposes. It would work similarly to BLU basic instinct where it only boosts the damage outside instances & Parties.
Same for tank stance. It can boost the tanks' damage outside instances & parties but once they join one the damage increase will be gone.

I wasn't around when this was implemented , what did cleric stance do?

**Kranel_San** · 01-29-2022 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveryPotion

I wasn't around when this was implemented , what did cleric stance do?

Cleric stance would increase healers' heals while also decreasing their damage. It was the healing stance for healers. ( You can imagine how this went badly )
Same for tank stance.
Cleric stance got removed while tank stance changed to be what it is today.

**SnowVix** · 01-29-2022 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Cleric stance would increase healers' heals while also decreasing their damage. It was the healing stance for healers. ( You can imagine how this went badly )
Same for tank stance.
Cleric stance got removed while tank stance changed to be what it is today.

you have it reversed. Cleric Stance would tank heal potency and give them more damage.

**Shurrikhan** · 01-30-2022 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Cleric stance would increase healers' heals while also decreasing their damage. It was the healing stance for healers. ( You can imagine how this went badly )
Same for tank stance.
Cleric stance got removed while tank stance changed to be what it is today.

Wait, so you're asking for the re-addition of something of which your understanding is entirely backwards?

Cleric Stance swapped your Mind (curative) and Intelligence (offensive) stats, in practice unlocking your attacks and locking your heals for at least 5 seconds. This made it a risk to start attacking at all, as you'd be left unable to heal for 5 seconds, therefore greatly reducing woven damage the average player would do.

Cleric Stance did not, to any degree not already included in healer offensive potency increases, increase damage. Nor did it increase healing. It merely made sure that either the offensive or curative portions of your kit were locked out at any given time.

**Atreides** · 01-29-2022 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveryPotion

I wasn't around when this was implemented , what did cleric stance do?

Cleric Stance from back then was a stance you could toggle on and off like tank stance. What it did was swap your MND with INT. Back then Healers damaging spells scaled with INT while their equip gave them MND.
So by using Cleric stance they sacrificed Healing for Damage. It was removed because alot of healers were scared to use if something goes south you had to turn the stance off which costed you a GCD and then heal, because healing in Cleric stance was extremely low.

**Packetdancer** · 01-29-2022 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Atreides

Cleric Stance from back then was a stance you could toggle on and off like tank stance. What it did was swap your MND with INT. Back then Healers damaging spells scaled with INT while their equip gave them MND.

To elaborate on this... specifically, as Atreides notes, healing potency was calculated as a function of Mind (as it is now), but damage potency for all magic was calculated as a function of Intelligence (as it is for casters now, but not healers). This was relevant not just because of Cleric Stance but because back then we had the ability to meld materia that could actually alter base stats like Mind, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc. Meaning you could make a gear-set that had some INT on it (and thus do higher damage without sacrificing healing) or meld MND materia (to have some real healing oomph but no damage unless you went into Cleric Stance).

When we shifted to a situation where healer damage potency was calculated off of MND instead of INT... much as I enjoyed stance-dancing as a concept, it no longer had any use; you used the same stat for both, so... what would it do? Swap MND for MND?

Though now that I'm thinking back... if I remember right, wasn't there a chunk of time where SCH used SMN's gear (since it was all ACN gear), which favored INT over MND? Which meant that for WHM while Cleric Stance being on meant you'd swapped your (higher) MND for your (lower) INT, making you do more damage in exchange for weaker healing... for SCH at that point it was the inverse, where (being for ACN) the gear had higher INT than MND, and Cleric Stance being on made you heal stronger, and Cleric Stance being off meant you were doing more damage?

I grant I might be misremembering; I didn't play SCH until well after that point, so I remember Cleric Stance mostly for the way it worked for WHM in 2.x.

[ puts that "it's been 87 years..." meme image here ]

**Averax** · 01-29-2022 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveryPotion

I wasn't around when this was implemented , what did cleric stance do?

Healers used to scale with intelligence and mind, mind affected the damage of their attacks, and mind the potency of their heals. Now it's just mind that affects everything.

Less a problem early on, as gear had both int and mind on it for healers and casters to share, but healer specific gear only hand mind on it later in the game.

"How did healers do any damage then?" You might ask. Cleric stance.

Cleric stance was an ability that, once toggled, swapped your int and mind values, and provided 10% bonus damage on top of that. In a perfect world, healers would turn it on when damage needed to be dealt, and turn it off when healing needed to be done.... we did not live in a perfect world. It had a 5 second recast timer. So once you pressed it, you could do virtually no healing for 5 whole seconds. Someone gets dunked on immediately after you pressed it, or you fat finger it on accident during a period of heavy damage? You're screwed, they're screwed, everybody's screwed.

It used to be fine for SCH back in the day because Lustrate didn't scale with anything and just healed a flat 25% of the target's HP. Similar to how benediction heals a fixed % of health. For WHM it was more catastrophic to mess up because benediction was/is on a 3 minute cooldown and it's all you had. And for AST you had nothing of the sort to circumvent a cleric stance mixup at all.

There was also the culture of main heal and off heal back then for a bit with it, iirc. Especially in just pugs. Main healer would leave it off for the most part, and the off healer would just weave in and out as needed.

**DiaDeem** · 01-30-2022 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveryPotion

I wasn't around when this was implemented , what did cleric stance do?

Two versions. If I get them wrong, I'm sure someone can correct me.

Version 1: Increased your damage while reducing your healing potency. Think current Essence of the Profane in Bozja/Save the Queen, except you could turn on and off at will. I think the toggle had a cooldown though, so if you activated it at the wrong time, you were useless for like 10 seconds or something. I may be wrong about that. I believe the way it used to work is that it would swap your Intelligence and Mind values or something like that. It was annoying imho.

Version 2: Increased damage dealt as a healer by 5% for 15 seconds.

Basically what they did is replace V1 with V2 and eventually just made it so you just deal damage as a healer in a range somewhere between no CS V2 and V2 which balances out.
If you ask me (and somewhat like BLM's old Enochian), it was just an annoying extra button you had to manage for the sake of needless complexity, but I guess it depends on each person. I personally don't miss it.

**Kolaina** · 01-29-2022 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I understand they removed it for balancing purposes, but I think it would be cool if healers can get the cleric stance back. However, for said balancing purposes. It would work similarly to BLU basic instinct where it only boosts the damage outside instances & Parties.
Same for tank stance. It can boost the tanks' damage outside instances & parties but once they join one the damage increase will be gone.

No. When clerics stance was a thing, less healers dps’d. Those who tried with clerics often faltered and ended up healing with int spec rather than mind mdd add king for unsustainable pulls. While I did enjoy this depth of gameplay, many couldn’t handle it

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Bring Cleric stance back