P1N Warrior solo kill

[Shurrikhan]

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's ability to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

That.. doesn't make sense.

You have types A, B, and C. Of those, only A interacts in a way that may be problematic with context X. Is X at fault, or A?

The argument was literally just that it could be either one. It is not necessarily X, as you and Alzinor have insisted.

________________

But, sure, let's back this up a ways, to where the point in contention becomes very obvious.

Even in ShB, you could no-heal and no-dps a majority of content-forms. You would not no-tank them.

Despite tanks clearly therefore being the more designed-in essential role, following ShB, Healer rDPS was decreased from ~64% of a DPS's to ~56%, while (Non-DRK) Tanks not only saw their free self-healing increased from as low as nil to a minimum of 4278 (and maximum of 12440 potency, even in single-target) per minute, their rDPS increased from ~56% of a DPS's to 64%.

Such will, very obviously, cause a shift in relative power in Tanks' favor (over both Healers and DPS), one that time had already proven is far from necessary -- seeing as any period in which tanks have ever become even briefly non-essential has meant immediate redress even while hardly an eye ever bats at Healers being made nonessential.



I say this as someone who plays Tank far more than Healers and prefers tanking to healing: We did not need the degree of power increase that was given to us in EW.

We needed more activity and agency, as arguably every role needed and still needs, but the increase to overall capacity was excessive. It would still be excessive even if there were commensurate added damage funneled into us; such would merely mean that the content would further solidify that imbalance.

Balance within roles is the first place we look to for job diversity, but when balance between roles fails, the whole game starts getting a bit wonky. We haven't yet hit any huge threshold or point of no return but we are certainly leaning that way, which is why we have both the reason and ability to do anything about it.

[Absimiliard]

I feel like people should begin approaching this issue from another point of view. Rather than going "oh no, tanks op," why not simply regard their survival (DRK notwithstanding) as being largely their own responsibility? That's more than enough agency for anybody, and the truth of the matter is that a good WAR, PLD, or GNB is only going to require healing in EX trials, savages, and a handful of dungeon trash pulls with either obnoxiously strong or obnoxious numbers of enemies. Why not embrace it? Let the tanks sustain themselves for the most part. Toss them a heal when necessary, but otherwise concentrate on throwing out damage or healing the floor ta--I mean red DPS.

Removing the increased damage from tanks is going to make far fewer people want to play them, as we saw the last time it happened. Limiting their self-healing, especially if this is done alongside the re-lowering of their damage, will likewise drive a not insignificant number of people away from the role. How does the game benefit from a tank needing twice as long to kill something as a DPS or getting murdered by some inconsequential mobs because they for some reason lack sustain, really? I've been a tank since ARR, and I definitely don't want to go back to the way it was then -- or, for that matter, to have my damage knocked back down to post-nerf levels.

[Lyth]

You're right, except for the wrong reasons.

The reason why there's so much passive self-healing on tanks this expansion is to make them more accessible to novice players. When a new tank sees their HP drop below 70%, they panic, activate all their cooldowns, and start typing angry, tearful paragraphs in chat. Automating the healing process makes the experience much less stressful for both the baby tank and their minder, but it also means that those tanks never grow. But it definitely has had an effect. I'm seeing even newer players on the forums and on reddit showing an awareness that tanking is chill and bottom of the barrel skill, and a lot less of the classic 'tanking looks really interesting but I'm too scared to try it' posts. And in retrospect, it probably makes a lot of sense to encourage newer players to filter through a lower queue time role first requiring less skill investment, get some game experience, and then eventually move on to a more engaging role with dps carry potential in raid content.

I think that the loudest voices in this thread have recognized the value in this and are pushing in what is truly the best design direction for tanks. Give them a passive regen that keeps them at full, a trait that lets them ignore additional damage through maximum vuln stacks while providing an automated nappy change, and then quietly scale down their damage between expansion releases to offset this. I wish you all the very best of success with this endeavor.

[Semirhage]

I'll do that as soon as you show me how gimmick all tank no healer runs have become the standard for the game's content and healers are struggling to find groups because of it.

You can't and you won't.

So it's only a problem if tanks are easily rendered overpowered? I assume this goalpost is just as easily wheeled back to "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos Ultimate"

For all you say, I still have no idea what you want to be done. Do you want every single piece of content to be solo-able by everyone? Or people so nerfed it can't be solo'd by anyone? Do you want fights changed or jobs? What are you asking for? Cause certain jobs being able to do X happens in all content, in every game, all the time. You are playing this victim card like you and healers like you are being targeted and treated unfairly.

As Shurrikhan said, this cuts both ways. It's not just encounter design, as you keep insisting. Healers, for example, are boring. They're boring in a dungeon, they're boring in solo duties, they're boring in savage, they're boring in ultimate. If you heal an ultimate and are at any skill level above "boosted last week", your enjoyment from ultimate comes from the mechanics of the fight, not your role. WHM in particular (the one I played most) has boring, one-dimensional heal spells with almost zero decision making. Healer gameplay is almost entirely down to countering the occasional obligatory unavoidable raidwide with one or two boring spells, most of which don't interact with anything in your kit at all, then return to Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare.

That's not encounter design that's causing that. It's *exacerbating* it without question, but the job design sucks in a vacuum too.

So back to tanks, Square fixes fights whenever any role other than a tank can handle a tankbuster, but if a non-healer can handle a heal check they have never once given a rat's behind. I don't claim this is because Square "hates healers" (believe me, there's tons of other evidence to suggest they either hate or are indifferent to the role, see above), but it's still an interesting data point that Square seems quite insistent upon making tanks impossible to replace even by highly skilled strategists. Even if their methods include something as ham fisted as a tankbuster every fight. What's their design philosophy that makes tank invalidation a huge red flag, requiring immediate rebalancing, but no healers? Cool, that's just "skill", no need for changes.

Why not embrace it? Let the tanks sustain themselves for the most part. Toss them a heal when necessary, but otherwise concentrate on throwing out damage or healing the floor ta--I mean red DPS.

Edit: I'm also not sure whence came this weird notion about what a tank's purpose is. I've seen this more than once in the tank forums. This idea that the tank's role is to be the party superhero that could probably do the fight all by himself if need be, but he brings DPS and healer sidekicks to clear the fight faster for him. That healers exist to heal the DPS that are enabling the tank's clear. What a bizarre, antisocial way to view teamwork. Glad we're just here to make the instance faster for you.

[Deceptus]

That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.

If it was a fight design flaw, only being low outgoing damage, then other roles could accomplish it. We don't have that situation on our hands do we?

Let's admit it's a mixture of low relative damage (which tank mitigation as well as invulnerabilities can negate) coupled with high tank sustainability.

Removing the increased damage from tanks is going to make far fewer people want to play them, as we saw the last time it happened. Limiting their self-healing, especially if this is done alongside the re-lowering of their damage, will likewise drive a not insignificant number of people away from the role. How does the game benefit from a tank needing twice as long to kill something as a DPS or getting murdered by some inconsequential mobs because they for some reason lack sustain, really? I've been a tank since ARR, and I definitely don't want to go back to the way it was then -- or, for that matter, to have my damage knocked back down to post-nerf levels..

None of that has anything to do with tank damage. This is NOT about nerfing tank damage.

Balance within roles is the first place we look to for job diversity, but when balance between roles fails, the whole game starts getting a bit wonky. We haven't yet hit any huge threshold or point of no return but we are certainly leaning that way, which is why we have both the reason and ability to do anything about it.

Every role needs to have some weakness that the other roles can augment. Tanks right now don't.

[Ixon]

If it was a fight design flaw, only being low outgoing damage, then other roles could accomplish it. We don't have that situation on our hands do we?

Let's admit it's a mixture of low relative damage (which tank mitigation as well as invulnerabilities can negate) coupled with high tank sustainability.

Except that the only reason why P1N can be soloable is because the only DPS requirement of a DPS check is not there, and the overall fight damage is laughable. Most fights are designed as such: Tank Busters/Mechanics necessitate the need for a tank, high overall party damage necessitates a need for a healer, and DPS checks/enrages necessitates DPS. P1N is missing two out of three, all that's left is the tank busters. Which by design, can only be handled by the tank, hence why it's called a tank buster, which is why only tanks can clear P1N at the moment. Healers have more sustain than tanks and DPS have and DPS have more damage than the tanks and healers have, but cannot survive tank busters, which is why you hardly see no tank clears. DPS checks are the least likely to exist in Normal modes, and the damage output of Normal modes are about ~30% of what it is in Savage because that's how Normal modes are designed.

The issue is this, you can go ahead and nerf tank sustain. I wouldn't care. GNB did not have nearly what it has now, and the only think I would miss is not being able to carry bad parties as much, but I'd survive. You could nerf it in a way that no tank could solo P1N, and I doubt anyone would really actually care because no one is clearing it solo outside of the challenge of wanting to waste an hour of your day. The issue is it would NOT help the issue healers are having. At all. So the tanks would need an extra essential, lustrate, tetra, per fight. I highly doubt any healer needing to use one more oGCD on the tank is going to jump for joy and praise SE that healers are fixed. It's the fact that almost every fight can be done without needing to cast a single GCD, or done without needing to use the full extent of their kit. Which is strictly why I put the issue on the fight designs.

[Alzinor]

Edit: I'm also not sure whence came this weird notion about what a tank's purpose is. I've seen this more than once in the tank forums. This idea that the tank's role is to be the party superhero that could probably do the fight all by himself if need be, but he brings DPS and healer sidekicks to clear the fight faster for him. That healers exist to heal the DPS that are enabling the tank's clear. What a bizarre, antisocial way to view teamwork. Glad we're just here to make the instance faster for you.

I mean, do you know what dps mean ?

"Damage Per Second" so.....yes it is basically your role to make our fight faster ? idk ?

and healer still have to heal the party and make sure nobody die, then they can dps for the downtime..

[ssunny2008]

You have a strange definition of "optimal" if you think "impossible to wipe = optimal"

(also what does some BRD underperforming at thier role have to do with anything?)

It´s no strange definiton, it´s reality. Optimal would be the most effective way across all circumstances. Of course if you´ve 8 confident players, the optimal choice would be to go in with 8 DPS classes, if there wouldn´t be a bunch of raidwides or tankbusters. But if there is no DPS check, it´s 8 tanks (8 warriors).

Tanks are nearly equal to healer, if not a bit higher in comparison if we talk about dps. DPS classes are about ~33% better if we count the top parses. So if we compare a standard grp of 2 tanks, 4 DPS and 2 healer to a full tank party, then the tankparty is doing about 20% less damage. If a standard comp is able to clear a fight in 10 minutes, the tank party would need 12. It might sound much to you or others, but it isn´t.
Those 2 minutes are well spend. If some ppl die in the standard comp, then those 2 minutes are nothing anymore. The risk to wipe is way higher too, meanwhile a fulltank party can ignore half of the mechanics and still performing top damage and keeping 100% uptime. The rotation is easier and they´re way more forgivable in any way, which lasts in my example. A lot of players aren´t able to perform well on any classes especially not DPS classes. But if they pick a WAR, they play 123 all day long meanwhile being pretty much unkillable. And you meet such ppl every day. A bunch do even jump on the OT spot to prog savage for obvious reasons.
If you keep such things in mind, then the most effective way is to pick the safe and easy choice called "8x WAR". I´m convinced it would prevent a bunch of stupid wipes and so far way more wasted time than those ~20%. (As it was at the given example of Rathalos.)


Tanks are broken and WAR is on top of it. As been said, without DPS checks and perhaps without such "Play the trinity!"-mechanics, 8 tanks or 1 tank / 7 DPS would be a permanent thing. We already saw 2 tanks and 6 DPS in Zodiark., so yeah. SE just tries to push us in the standard comp with the 1% bonus and stuff like healerstacks to justify the existence of RDPS and healer classes and to ignore the broken state of tanks completely. Tanking is absolutely braindead and the best choice to prog / to beat any content.

[Alzinor]

It´s no strange definiton, it´s reality. Optimal would be the most effective way across all circumstances. Of course if you´ve 8 confident players, the optimal choice would be to go in with 8 DPS classes, if there wouldn´t be a bunch of raidwides or tankbusters. But if there is no DPS check, it´s 8 tanks (8 warriors).

Tanks are nearly equal to healer, if not a bit higher in comparison if we talk about dps. DPS classes are about ~33% better if we count the top parses. So if we compare a standard grp of 2 tanks, 4 DPS and 2 healer to a full tank party, then the tankparty is doing about 20% less damage. If a standard comp is able to clear a fight in 10 minutes, the tank party would need 12. It might sound much to you or others, but it isn´t.
Those 2 minutes are well spend. If some ppl die in the standard comp, then those 2 minutes are nothing anymore. The risk to wipe is way higher too, meanwhile a fulltank party can ignore half of the mechanics and still performing top damage and keeping 100% uptime. The rotation is easier and they´re way more forgivable in any way, which lasts in my example. A lot of players aren´t able to perform well on any classes especially not DPS classes. But if they pick a WAR, they play 123 all day long meanwhile being pretty much unkillable. And you meet such ppl every day. A bunch do even jump on the OT spot to prog savage for obvious reasons.
If you keep such things in mind, then the most effective way is to pick the safe and easy choice called "8x WAR". I´m convinced it would prevent a bunch of stupid wipes and so far way more wasted time than those ~20%. (As it was at the given example of Rathalos.)

Except the optimal way to progress in endgame content in FF is to kill the savage tier asap to get your bis faster and maybe prepare ultimate or logrun or speedkill etc....

If your goal is to kill week1, you definitely cannot do it as 8 tank since tight dps check on most fight is a thing.

beside that, people who clear a savage tier probably week 10 or higher, yes a full party of tank would be a thing since you can have a tons of gears in 10 week to upgrade your ilvl AND even with that, it would be possible with a solide dps from each tank, which means that a static of average dps tier tank couldn't even clear because of the dps check.

Even in progress, tank do not take tons of damage but they still can die from deadly mechanics or because they pay no attention, so, if it happen ? who's going to rez them ? Do you know that many people cleared their savage fight because there were healer to adjust and rez people.
it is better to have a party with any role to make sure you can still prog or pass a 8 man mechanics instead on jumping in the wall after 8min because you know you can't go further with dead people on your side

Then no, 8 tank is not optimal in any way, optimal also mean " fast prog and fast kill" not waiting a bunch of week to flex on people " hey look game is ez i've cleared with a 8 tank party week 45" or even " hey just did my weekly as 8 tank and it took us 2 more min on each fight to kill because we had no dps lol"

Every role needs to have some weakness that the other roles can augment. Tanks right now don't.

We can not rez people

but more seriously, every role have a weakness, even tank.

dps : they're squishy and are dependant of healing and mitigation from healers and tank but they have the highest damage in game and help a lot to rpgress and clear a fight.
healers : can heal and even tank auto attack even in savage (true story) but can not take tank buster / can not do enough damage to clear a fight by themselves..
tank : can pretty much do a good dps, heal themselves and sometimes party but don't have the highest damage in game and are dependant of healers and dps on some fights with tight dps / heal check or even mechanics which require to have a specific role inside.

[ssunny2008]

Then no, 8 tank is not optimal in any way, optimal also mean " fast prog and fast kill" not waiting a bunch of week to flex on people " hey look game is ez i've cleared with a 8 tank party week 45" or even " hey just did my weekly as 8 tank and it took us 2 more min on each fight to kill because we had no dps lol"

I don´t know, have you read? I said, if there is no DPS check. It´s one of the things to force ppl to play standard comps. But if there is none, tanks are the easy choice.
Even in savage or overall world first prog, 8 tanks are superior. First of all you might see more mechanics since ppl actually survive. And if there is no DPS check, then you just gonna faceroll 30 minutes through a fight.
A perfect example would be P1s. If someone fucks up the gems, it´s mostly a wipe. But if you´ve 8 tanks, it doesn´t matter if someone fcks them up. So all what holds you back is that DPS check. So far it might be a thing that the prog would be even faster if there wouldn´t be such DPC checks and all because tanks are nothing but broken and highly forgivable.