P1N Warrior solo kill

[Ixon]

The idea as it's been presented here doesn't do the greatest job of explaining its warrants, but let's consider:

• Tanks' "tanking" throughput is entirely free outside of Clemency, which PLD is already balanced around never using.
• Healers' "healing" throughput is free only to a point, which varies rapidly by job.
• A tank is therefore putting out their full role throughput, at no cost to damage, and higher maximum damage, while a healer's damage comes at cost to their damage and they have lower maximal damage.

If you watch the clears, the only job with 100% free sustain is WAR. The PLD had to Clemency(dps loss) and the GNB had to 1-2 Brutal Shell spam(dps loss). Not to mention DRK's TBN is only free if the bubble pops otherwise it's also a dps loss.

Healers healing throughput is about 99% free in most content, considering most content you can heal all the way through without needing to GCD heal once, including some of the current savage fights. Most groups don't even GCD heal at all. The only GCDing healing that is "mandatory" that I can think of are SGE Pneuma(dps neutral anyways), SCH Adlo(for crit spreadlo's), AST with Synastry(lol) and Neutral Sect(only works on GCD's, but most AST's don't even use it in most fights), and WHM Lily system(which everyone can agree needs a rework anyway).

Here's where I think the designed tradeoff is: Tanks do more damage because they cannot sustain the entire party by themselves, healers do less damage because they can sustain the entire party by themselves. Sure a tank could probably keep one person alive, but not for long. Think of healing like a utility and pretend we are all DPS(which we all are), in that case if you had a dps that could sustain an entire 8 man party for an entire fight, of course they would do the least damage. This is my theory, speculation, whatever, but it makes sense to me. This is, however, only relevant in High End content. Normal modes and dungeons don't really matter.

Now if healers just want more damage buttons, go ahead, God bless.

[Semirhage]

Tanks can't heal the entire party from 1hp to full health in a matter of seconds. Tanks do not have nearly as much party mitigation as healers who can chuck aoe shields and mitigation on demand without waiting for long cooldowns. Tanks cannot revive downed party members.

Healers can do more than half the damage of a dps job while no dps job comes even close to the amount of healing that healers have. Same for tanks. Even WAR's healing output is nothing compared to healers, and definitely not nearly as close as healer dps is to tanks.

If we look at damage and healing together, healers contribute MUCH more than every other role and it's not even close. Why SHOULD they also do as much or more damage than any other role when they already have the greatest contribution in the party and are putting out very near the same amount of damage as tanks in the first place?

The one area where the tank role sits well and clear above healer is personal survivability/mitigation. Shocker, I know. It has MUCH less healing power, MUCH less party mitigation, NO ability to revive whatsoever and a bit more damage. I'm going to repeat myself and say that by the numbers healers in this game are crazy strong. Not being able to do everything that a tank can do doesn't change that.

You're posting this in a thread about tanks doing current extreme and savage content without a healer. What is this "greatest contribution to the party" you speak of? All this ridiculous healing potency is meaningless.

Hm, maybe we should redesign tanks. TANKS should TANK ONLY. All this damage focus you have is a distraction from what should be your main job. Let's reduce your rotation down to one melee attack, one AOE, one dot, and one weaker ranged ability. Then you can replace those cut damage abilities with four copies of Rampart, three copies of Sentinel....

Oh that would be boring, godawful embarrassing design? Because that's how healers are designed. And for that garbage design, they're still the first role to get ejected from parties, because for all that yammering about healing being the "greatest contribution" it's not. You require a baseline, after which all extra healing is useless. Damage is the only metric that doesn't come hard capped on its usefulness, and tanks bring more than healers for no reason.

[TheOperator3712]

You're posting this in a thread about tanks doing current extreme and savage content without a healer. What is this "greatest contribution to the party" you speak of? All this ridiculous healing potency is meaningless.
...
Oh that would be boring, godawful embarrassing design? Because that's how healers are designed. And for that garbage design, they're still the first role to get ejected from parties, because for all that yammering about healing being the "greatest contribution" it's not. You require a baseline, after which all extra healing is useless. Damage is the only metric that doesn't come hard capped on its usefulness, and tanks bring more than healers for no reason.

This thread is about a tank solo'ing a Normal raid, not no healer runs of extreme and savage. The latter of which is not happening, and the former requires extremely specific comps that rely on DPS to heal the party.

All of that extra healing comes becomes quite valuable in Savage and Ultimate fights. Healers still have more than necessary for farm yes, but during prog healing requirements are much higher due to player error.

Healers are of course not designed well in other areas; however your hyperbole and vitriol will not help them. Nor will posting in the tank section.

[Deceptus]

This thread is about a tank solo'ing a Normal raid, not no healer runs of extreme and savage. The latter of which is not happening, and the former requires extremely specific comps that rely on DPS to heal the party

P1S was done by 8 warriors.

[BaconBits]

Personally I couldn't give two damns whether or not Healers do more damage than Tanks. I just want to press more than smash my Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis button so violently it tries to file a restraining order on me while reaching over to slap my single dot button twice a minute.

[Oextra]

I honestly can't believe people are complaining about something that literally took an hour to do. Who cares that this is possible when it's beyond inefficient.

[Semirhage]

All I'm saying is, the two times in my recollection that players could do current patch content without a tank, it constituted immediate nerfs to the classes that did it. Tanks doing current content without healers? Without DPS? Solo? Crickets. This is a double. Standard.

[Semirhage]

for no reason.

Please post the all healer no tank clear of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks can do -far more- than it rewards what healers can do.

[Ixon]

Please post the all healer no tank clear of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks can do -far more- than it rewards what healers can do.

"Please post all the no healer no tank clears of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks and healers can do -far more- than it rewards what dps can do."

Like, the necessity of a tank in a fight can be boiled down to just the tank busters. If you can circumvent what is a staple mechanic in every fight then you don't need a tank either. I almost feel like that's what healers want. A single copy paste mechanic in every fight that makes them a necessity. It's weird cause I main tank, but if I think there is room for my MT to solo I'm always 100% for it and will just swap to a random DPS. But who knows, maybe they'll add a "drop to 1" or a "Esuna 7 people" or a "healer only towers" in every fight just so they feel more validated.

[Semirhage]

Like, the necessity of a tank in a fight can be boiled down to just the tank busters. If you can circumvent what is a staple mechanic in every fight then you don't need a tank either. I almost feel like that's what healers want. A single copy paste mechanic in every fight that makes them a necessity. It's weird cause I main tank, but if I think there is room for my MT to solo I'm always 100% for it and will just swap to a random DPS. But who knows, maybe they'll add a "drop to 1" or a "Esuna 7 people" or a "healer only towers" in every fight just so they feel more validated.

And yet there's still a glaring double standard between the roles. Twice has this "no tanks in current content" thing been done, and twice Square immediately nerfed the two jobs that enabled it, but tanks solo or mono-role clearing things is just business as usual. So I'm going to ask for probably the fourth time in this thread: why are tanks allowed to flip the concept of teamwork or the trinity the bird, and but it constitutes an emergency change when anyone else does it? I don't think the playerbase is responsible for that state of affairs, but I can certainly blame the tank players for going "whaaaaaat we can clear stuff solo that's just how things are deal with it!"

if you don't have fun on the healers but enjoy tanking, then swap until SE fixes it?

They're not going to. I swapped to DPS two expansions ago and the design has been getting worse ever since. FFXIV has the most horrible healer design I've ever seen in an RPG, let alone an MMO. The role needs a redesign from the ground up.

That's an issue entirely separate from the laughable idea earlier in the thread that healers "should" do less damage than tanks because their contribution is "more valuable", when literally every single piece of evidence in content as designed shows that healers are the LEAST valuable members of any given party.