So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[kizumiayamame]

You can't be serious and start whining about how there's the possibility of people harassing you over a parser or whatever scenarios y'all like to imagine in your heads when it rarely if ever happens in game. You know what does happen in game? People who don't know how to press their 1-2-3 combo or quadruple weave their gcds. There's no way that open communication about trying to kill the boss and making sure everyone is up to par is worse than the player who still doesn't know their rotation at level 90 and doesn't even have the right food buff on. And often you don't even need to bring third party programs into the conversation. When I look at the aggro list and see the dragoon below the summoner, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone doesn't know how to play their class.

[Menriq]

You can't be serious and start whining about how there's the possibility of people harassing you over a parser or whatever scenarios y'all like to imagine in your heads when it rarely if ever happens in game. You know what does happen in game? People who don't know how to press their 1-2-3 combo or quadruple weave their gcds. There's no way that open communication about trying to kill the boss and making sure everyone is up to par is worse than the player who still doesn't know their rotation at level 90 and doesn't even have the right food buff on. And often you don't even need to bring third party programs into the conversation. When I look at the aggro list and see the dragoon below the summoner, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone doesn't know how to play their class.

1.) If you are quadruple weaving, you are doing it way wrong.
2.) If you are looking at the aggro list to determine anything, you are doing it way wrong.

[EaraGrace]

Dps checks are usually limited to Extremes and above. As it stands if you are doing those pieces of content you have options to ensure that party members are doing their share. Don’t think you’ll clear? Find another group or make a static. Or better yet kindly suggest how to improve. If none of these are options then low dps isn’t the really problem here.

[Euphares]

Dps checks are usually limited to Extremes and above. As it stands if you are doing those pieces of content you have options to ensure that party members are doing their share. Don’t think you’ll clear? Find another group or make a static. Or better yet kindly suggest how to improve. If none of these are options then low dps isn’t the really problem here.

Without third party tools tell me exactly how you would be able to suggest, or even observe areas that need improvement?


-Combat log is unreliable.
-There's no fight history.
-No offensive buff tracker.
-No defensive buff tracker.
-Tracking stats doesn't exist.
-Damage down debuffs have no value associated with them.




You would literally have to manually calculate total potencies of every single job, then compare them to each other, then calculate every single potency interaction in the game just to get a grasp on what could be considered "playing right."




Furthermore, it is pretty blatantly obvious the devs themselves use FFlogs/ACT statistics in regards to balance. There really is zero reason to attempt to make these tools "taboo" outside of wanting to avoid percieved toxicity (which still exists anyways.)

[Ath192]

Without third party tools tell me exactly how you would be able to suggest, or even observe areas that need improvement?


-Combat log is unreliable.
-There's no fight history.
-No offensive buff tracker.
-No defensive buff tracker.
-Tracking stats doesn't exist.
-Damage down debuffs have no value associated with them.




You would literally have to manually calculate total potencies of every single job, then compare them to each other, then calculate every single potency interaction in the game just to get a grasp on what could be considered "playing right."




Furthermore, it is pretty blatantly obvious the devs themselves use FFlogs/ACT statistics in regards to balance. There really is zero reason to attempt to make these tools "taboo" outside of wanting to avoid percieved toxicity (which still exists anyways.)

Even with it being against TOS I've seen plenty of PFs saying purple plus or requiring some sort of average to run with them, the moment they make it acceptable and official you will see a giant wave of gatekeeping and discrimination happening. I see it in private discords all the time.

While it is a useful tool, and I ALSO think the devs themselves use it to balance their classes (which would explain why they are always making adjustments after they release a new expansion and realize hmmmm that doesnt look good), I fail to see a better approach than the one they have taken. Yes, it creates pettiness and passive aggressiveness, but it does a better job of forcing everyone together and making everyone put up with each other.

Many players may not want that, but the devs sure do want their entire playerbase playing together. There's also a risk of the raiding scene becoming so divided the pools of people they are willing to do content with are too small and they may just get bored or quit. They have very legitimate reasons for fearing making a tool like that official. But either route they take will have assets and drawbacks.

[Euphares]

Even with it being against TOS I've seen plenty of PFs saying purple plus or requiring some sort of average to run with them, the moment they make it acceptable and official you will see a giant wave of gatekeeping and discrimination happening. I see it in private discords all the time.

While it is a useful tool, and I ALSO think the devs themselves use it to balance their classes (which would explain why they are always making adjustments after they release a new expansion and realize hmmmm that doesnt look good), I fail to see a better approach than the one they have taken. Yes, it creates pettiness and passive aggressiveness, but it does a better job of forcing everyone together and making everyone put up with each other.

Many players may not want that, but the devs sure do want their entire playerbase playing together. There's also a risk of the raiding scene becoming so divided the pools of people they are willing to do content with are too small and they may just get bored or quit. They have very legitimate reasons for fearing making a tool like that official. But either route they take will have assets and drawbacks.

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.



You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad, the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.


This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well. But can you blame either person? It sucks having people who don't pull their weight constantly hold a group hostage because no one can say anything to them. And it sucks trying to learn and feeling lost/overwhelmed because you have to go off the game to learn how to be better in the game.


Yes having a public meter would lead to an increase in toxicity, but just crackdown on it more harshly. They can afford to hire more gm's/mods to do this, but making meters so convoluted and hush-hush to get is denying a lot of players, specifically console players from having any way to learn and/or improve. Which simply doesn't work in a game where there is very difficult group content.



If the devs don't want players curating other players, then they need to put in work to make the game do it instead.

Why would they use fflogs when they have the numbers

Numbers are useless unless meaning is put behind them. Seeing that most people are playing RPR/MNK right now won't really tell you the why behind it.


RDPS/ADPS/NDPS don't exist anywhere in the game or combat log. These are metrics that exist soley because of FFlogs, as such, the devs have the data on their end, but what can they do with it? There is nothing wrong with them using FFlogs to determine balance. I find it to be a good thing. But it is def a thing that happens, I'm like 90% sure of it.

[Ath192]

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.



You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad, the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.


This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well. But can you blame either person? It sucks having people who don't pull their weight constantly hold a group hostage because no one can say anything to them. And it sucks trying to learn and feeling lost/overwhelmed because you have to go off the game to learn how to be better in the game.


Yes having a public meter would lead to an increase in toxicity, but just crackdown on it more harshly. They can afford to hire more gm's/mods to do this, but making meters so convoluted and hush-hush to get is denying a lot of players, specifically console players from having any way to learn and/or improve. Which simply doesn't work in a game where there is very difficult group content.



If the devs don't want players curating other players, then they need to put in work to make the game do it instead.





Numbers are useless unless meaning is put behind them. Seeing that most people are playing RPR/MNK right now won't really tell you the why behind it.


RDPS/ADPS/NDPS don't exist anywhere in the game or combat log. These are metrics that exist soley because of FFlogs, as such, the devs have the data on their end, but what can they do with it? There is nothing wrong with them using FFlogs to determine balance. I find it to be a good thing. But it is def a thing that happens, I'm like 90% sure of it.

Yes. I would support a score card at the end of every normal and savage raid only you can see about your performance alone with tips.

Like C+:
You clipped too much
You interrupted several spells!

No one would have to know but you and it would help a lot.

[Ronduwil]

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.

You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad

Pro tip: If you're inspecting the floor, you're playing bad. If you get vulnerability stacks, you're playing bad. Maximizing DPS is at the bottom of your priorities. You can't DPS if you're dead. Your healers can't DPS if they're constantly scrambling to keep you alive.

the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.

I agree that this is an issue, but parsers aren't the solution to it. Someone who's gone out of their way to install/enable a parser has likely also read all their tooltips and worked out a proper rotation. A better solution, IMO, is to have some sort of in-game rotation tutor. Maybe have an Allagan dummy that analyzes your rotation and either suggests improvements or praises your efficiency. Make a mini-game of it and add it to the challenge log. Unless you're running extremes and savages (in which case you're likely on Discord and outside the scope of SE's enforcement), there's no reason to worry about anyone's DPS. I've never seen a DPS check fail in normal content that wasn't also accompanied by lots of dead bodies on the floor. I've never seen a group completely disband in this game. The vast majority of the time, the duty finder content is cleared without any wipes or echo stacks. On occasion, there's a wipe followed by some explanations, followed by success.

This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well.

You're misunderstanding the source of the shock. The shock happens when someone who is playing a video game to relax and have fun encounters someone who is playing a video game as a substitute for IRL employment/achievements. No one expects a random player to suddenly start channeling their supervisor from work, and they certainly don't enjoy it. You don't have to tell anyone that they're playing wrong. More often than not, they know, and they don't care. If they cared about your opinion or wanted your tips, they would ask for it. If they ask, feel free to constructively pipe up. Better yet, if you want to educate players, create guides and post them on YouTube, Reddit, and/or Discord. The players who care will seek them out and thank you for it. There's no need to shock anyone.

[Slayer25c]

Without third party tools tell me exactly how you would be able to suggest, or even observe areas that need improvement?


-Combat log is unreliable.
-There's no fight history.
-No offensive buff tracker.
-No defensive buff tracker.
-Tracking stats doesn't exist.
-Damage down debuffs have no value associated with them.




You would literally have to manually calculate total potencies of every single job, then compare them to each other, then calculate every single potency interaction in the game just to get a grasp on what could be considered "playing right."




Furthermore, it is pretty blatantly obvious the devs themselves use FFlogs/ACT statistics in regards to balance. There really is zero reason to attempt to make these tools "taboo" outside of wanting to avoid percieved toxicity (which still exists anyways.)

Why would they use fflogs when they have the numbers

[Packetdancer]

Why would they use fflogs when they have the numbers

Because if someone else is conveniently already collecting the real-world numbers for you and running the analysis on them, you'd be a fool not to take those into account as well when doing any tuning. Who's going to sneer at additional data? Square-Enix would be far from the only company that takes such things into consideration.

(Source: used to work as a video game developer, before crunch time culture began to slowly crush the life from my soul.)