So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[DarkDredgen]

These casuals usually are not in end game content. Most end game content needs a pre made anyways. Doesn’t mean a person can’t expect some form of ability beyond showing up and 1,2,3ing for casual content.
But those are the sweaty try hards as you see them. Keep excusing poor play and vilifying people who put in an honest effort and the player base will never evolve.

So, why not form a premade party for whatever content you do find these casuals in?

Now you're suggesting a basic skill margain for MSQ/regular content too? Provide evidence of someone exclusively using their 1-2-3 combo else im calling a bs attempt at validating your own argument.

I hate to break this to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you and what you want to happen. Who decided you get to move the goal posts and set the standards?

For the fourth time, because this is a very important yet simple concept you seem to keep overlooking, if you are not satisfied with casual players (and again, thats the majority of the player base) then you are absolutely free to form premade parties to tackle any content this game has to offer.

You make the choice to play with casual players.

What you are not free to do is be an a-hole to people in game because they might be 'underperforming', as per the games rules.

How do you know the person you are shaming/belittling/patronising isn't a young kid? Or a middle aged man trying to unwind after a crap day in work?

I'm done stating the obvious to you.

Enjoy the game...if that's even possible for some of you.

[Sylve]

So you would record the entire fight and then specifically look at each player's rotation to see if they are doing a good rotation and aligning buffs correctly? You are describing a parser.

Yes, Its almost as though i were describing an alternative method of self improvement that didn't involve a parser.

The question i was responding to was "How do i find out whats wrong without a parser", So i listed some methods that are indeed capable of providing that information.

To address a whole bunch of replies at once: The instant numbers become available in an official capacity, the playerbase will begin using it to attack players.
Don't believe me? There are several incidents of streamers being banned for their comments regarding DPS.
Every MMO I've ever played that includes DPS meters also includes a culture that allows attacks towards other players for percieved failure to live up to someone elses standard.

Know what i like in XIV? Not seeing meters spammed after every pull. Not seeing egotistical pricks scream at the party about how much better they are and how they're carrying everyone on their back.

Players cannot be trusted to behave with respect towards their fellow players.
We don't need official tools to facilitate bad behaviour.

@Everyone with stories of "But a parser helped me!"
Great, you're experiencing the Square Enix Compromise of turning a blind eye to parsers on the proviso you keep your mouth shut about other players.
Use the tools available in a way that Square has no reason to drop the ban hammer on you for and everything will be fine.
Its not like Square can write a clause in the ToS to not talk about official parts of the UI, But they CAN put one in regarding third party UI elements.

PS: the problem with parsers is never the parser, its how people use the information that prevents us from ever getting an official one.

[Kolaina]

long winded and angry post

So here comes the cliche, goes both ways comment. Why not form a premade casual group? Because people shouldn’t need to do that to complete content.

What’s inherently wrong with a basic standard? Do you just not want to improve? Satisfied with mediocrity? Also, all these “provide proof” people. Sorry, I’m not in game right now. I’m also not going to jump in and out of duties, hoping to get a complete disaster of a dps so i can show you proof. Doesn’t mean these players do not exist. Call bs all you want. If you cared enough about performance, you may start to notice when people are severely underperforming and find the proof you are looking for.
Again, I’ll give the cliche goes both ways comment about the world doesnt revolve around you comment. The part you ignore though is that when you do group content, your little world, now impacts others who get tossed in with you. You have an impact on their world, their play and their time. Maybe be respectful of those people and understand, your comment, goes for you too.
Again, as it seems to be a necessary thing to point out to you, goes both ways. Form your premade if you want to waste time, and hardly lift a finger to clear content. You think i actually hate playing with casuals, which I don’t. There’s a difference between a casual, and someone getting carried. Those are the ones i do not like and the ones you are excusing with your very angry retort towards me.
Who says I’m an “a-hole” as you put it? You? Very vulgar just because you disagree with me. Who says i even speak up to people. What makes me an “a-hole” exactly? Because i think people who are taking up others time should do more than make a mediocre attempt? That’s the toxic casualism i refer to.
Again you are making unfounded accusations. Just because someone wants a certain standard does not make them “shaming/belittling/patronizing”. The hypocrisy though considering that is the entirety of your post.
Conclusion; you’re just angry and need to calm down =]

[Akamadoshi]

So, what exactly do you intend to talk about for this so-called "DPS check issue"?
You want to.. call out someone who's not doing as good as those imbalanced numbers tell us from the BEST players?
Or... perhaps you want to 'motivate' a DPS to do better while, I don't know, they are trying their best?

There is no reason to "talk about DPS during DPS check" I can think of. However, I can tell you how my DC does it;
there was a point of Circle Three Savage where nobody died but we got enraged. This is 100% testament that DPS is not at its fullest potential.
This does NOT need people to be called out for, this does NOT require people to be told DPS check was low.
It simply means this group is not able to go together, because it's imbalanced.
So what do we do? We disband. End of discussion.

There is no reason to rage about the "Can't talk about DPS while there is DPS check" basically you ask permission to embarrass or call out somebody. And that's a huge nope from me too. I am somebody who reclears weekly through Raid Finder and practices through Party finder,
So I understand the frustration, but I cannot agree with this argument. (Sorry!)

[JanVanding]

"quadruple weaving"

there are no dps checks for anything below extreme. You can autoattack normal raid bosses and regular trials to death.

Also in PF groups I'm happy to see someone have food at all, "wrong" or not.

Titania and Hydaelyn would like a word

Sure they are dead easy dps checks, but they are still dps checks regardless.

[MaxCarnage]

Now you're suggesting a basic skill margain for MSQ/regular content too? Provide evidence of someone exclusively using their 1-2-3 combo else im calling a bs attempt at validating your own argument.

I can name a few of my experiences, though you'll dismiss them for lack of "video evidence".

- I had a WHM recently in the level 90 MSQ dungeon that only used Medica II for group healing. Would use Medica II during trash pulls to give the tank a regen, but wouldn't actually give them a single target regen. Wouldn't use lilies, Lucid Dreaming, Divine Benison, Benediction, or Tetra, and would only assize after the mobs were dead to get some MP back. Oh, and also didn't Holy at all.

- Had a DRG in level 80 content who wouldn't AoE. Only used 1-2-3. They didn't have blood of the dragon, so they weren't using their 4 or 5 at all. Just 1-2-3.

- Had a BLM in level 80 content when that was end game that would only use Thunder IV during trash pulls. Nothing else. Just Thunder IV.

- Had a BRD in level 60+ content that would only use Rain of Death as an AoE. Wouldn't use Quick Notch at all. Just single target until Rain of Death was off CD.

- All the tanks that will hit 3 or 4 AoE skills just to grab aggro, and then stand there just auto-attacking until the mobs are dead.

- The fact that I have personally experienced healers getting kicked from duties for asking people to please dodge AoEs.

That's just a few I can name off the top of my head. Oh, and let's not forget all the people who are doing their lvl 50 rotation still in lvl 80+ content, which is essentially still 1-2-3ing.

[Menriq]

So, what exactly do you intend to talk about for this so-called "DPS check issue"?
You want to.. call out someone who's not doing as good as those imbalanced numbers tell us from the BEST players?
Or... perhaps you want to 'motivate' a DPS to do better while, I don't know, they are trying their best?

There is no reason to "talk about DPS during DPS check" I can think of. However, I can tell you how my DC does it;
there was a point of Circle Three Savage where nobody died but we got enraged. This is 100% testament that DPS is not at its fullest potential.
This does NOT need people to be called out for, this does NOT require people to be told DPS check was low.
It simply means this group is not able to go together, because it's imbalanced.
So what do we do? We disband. End of discussion.

There is no reason to rage about the "Can't talk about DPS while there is DPS check" basically you ask permission to embarrass or call out somebody. And that's a huge nope from me too. I am somebody who reclears weekly through Raid Finder and practices through Party finder,
So I understand the frustration, but I cannot agree with this argument. (Sorry!)

The thing is, those "inbalanced numbers" aren't just from the BEST players. So in your example, you guys just disbanded. That's great, but without a parser, how would someone realize they are not playing at a level that needs to be played for that content? Want a perfect example of how this parser and features from it can be useful? https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...fair-but-okay/ post #312 and #314. The person stated "I have to question if, when I'm performing my rotation correctly and consistently, not failing mechanics, and not dying, highly geared and fully materia'd, if I'm STILL registering with medicore parses, if this information is even worth taking seriously". However, because of the parser and the associated analysis, it turns out they were not using critical skills and their rotation was in fact not perfect. Without this information, said person would have never have realized they could potentially be the problem. This is exactly how the tool should be used, so yes, in your group if someone performing relatively low, there shouldn't be anything against removing them since they are causing you to not reach the enrage time. Does that mean you need to ridicule them? No, but it also might mean that instead of disbanding the group, the lower performing player could be removed, swapped in with someone who can play a little better, and then the group could continue.

[Kolaina]

Titania and Hydaelyn would like a word

Sure they are dead easy dps checks, but they are still dps checks regardless.

There may be more we are unaware of. Most people don’t know about delubrums enrage on the 4 knights boss. But I’ve seen it. People were more concerned arguing over an “early pull” than pressing their buttons that the boss enraged and did an aoe that 1 shotted the entire alliance

[Atelier-Bagur]

Honestly the fact that we are having heated arguements over this issue pretty much confirms why parsing should stay out of FFXIV. Its really not needed. People already stated the solution for hardcore endgame raiders. Run these with your FC or a premade where everyone is on board with high level performance. No need to rope in casuals.

[JanVanding]

Honestly the fact that we are having heated arguements over this issue pretty much confirms why parsing should stay out of FFXIV. Its really not needed. People already stated the solution for hardcore endgame raiders. Run these with your FC or a premade where everyone is on board with high level performance. No need to rope in casuals.

Parsing is for optimization, to make sure you get your rotation down, to improve your own performance

People using "But Parsing will be used against me" are actually incredibly wrong.

Dying to easy mechanics, making obvious rotation mistakes that we can tell as clear as day, stand around and doing absolutely nothing....these are things people will have a problem with and we don't need a parser to know when someone is making mistake after mistake after mistake and not at all attempting to improve themselves.

Edit: And this needs to be emphasized, nobody is going to pull you over for not being perfect on your rotation, nobody is going to pull you over for tiny mistakes, nobody is going to get mad if you make a mistake, acknowledge it and rectify it after

People make mistakes, it's when someone refuses to acknowledge they're making a mistake and keep making it over and over and over or just are being plain lazy and expecting a carry.

This is what I and many others 100% have a problem with and how do we deal with it?

We disband and reform the group without the offending person.

If we are not allowed to call out that kind of behaviour, we just won't call it, we'll just find someone else that isn't behaving like a dead weight and refusing to admit they're the problem.