So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Impulsikk]

Without parses/FF14 analysis, I wouldn't have known I was playing Dragoon wrong when I got to Savage. I discovered I wasn't being effective with timing my off-GCD's in my Lange Charge buff window, and was overcapping my GCD with double/triple weaves. Or that my Chaos thrust was falling off too soon and only had 70% uptime. It's a useful tool for getting better. It doesn't really make sense why Square Enix tunes their fights to have a DPS check, but doesn't allow groups to hold people accountable for their DPS. Are groups supposed to just bang their head on the boss until it falls hoping the bad player just discovers that he was playing wrong randomly?

[Packetdancer]

Are groups supposed to just bang their head on the boss until it falls hoping the bad player just discovers that he was playing wrong randomly?

I still think they could solve the problem by having a tool akin to XIVanalysis, but not (strictly speaking) a damage meter in the normal sense.

Because they are unfortunately most likely right that some people would go "Look, if the developers didn't want me to tell the black mage he's so bad at this game he should do us all a favor and go step into traffic, the devs wouldn't have let the game tell me just how much the black mage sucks at his job!" Adding an ACT-style damage meter into the game would almost certainly measurably increase toxicity, not because the damage meter itself is toxic but because some players would view the existence of an official parser as dev-granted permission to be complete jerks.

But that doesn't mean you can't get creative and provide tools that still allow for analysis of your gameplay and measuring self-improvement, while also not serving as a blunt weapon you can beat other players over the head with. Witness, again, my Google Doc with a hypothetical example of this system. It's hardly a perfect, or even really fleshed-out, design... but it does serve as an example of how you could provide a tool that allows folks to test their performance and measure their improvement, without unintentionally also encouraging toxicity from the inevitable non-zero number of jerks every online community of sufficient size will have.

[Michieltjuhh]

Because they are unfortunately most likely right that some people would go "Look, if the developers didn't want me to tell the black mage he's so bad at this game he should do us all a favor and go step into traffic, the devs wouldn't have let the game tell me just how much the black mage sucks at his job!" Adding an ACT-style damage meter into the game would almost certainly measurably increase toxicity, not because the damage meter itself is toxic but because some players would view the existence of an official parser as dev-granted permission to be complete jerks.

You can apply that selfsame logic to damage downs, vulnerability stacks, and literally just being able to see other players in the first place. "Look, if the developers didn't want to me to tell the <insert job> he's bad at the game, then the devs wouldn't have let the game show me he has a damage down/vulnerability/isn't in melee range as melee/isn't visually attacking correctly!"

One step further to combat all this perceived toxicity and we may as well remove other player characters from the game and just occasionally say "other people were with you on this boss fight!".

[Packetdancer]

You can apply that selfsame logic to damage downs, vulnerability stacks, and literally just being able to see other players in the first place. "Look, if the developers didn't want to me to tell the <insert job> he's bad at the game, then the devs wouldn't have let the game show me he has a damage down/vulnerability/isn't in melee range as melee/isn't visually attacking correctly!"

I feel like there's an important difference of degree in comparing "I can see that this player is having trouble executing mechanics because they're taking excessive amounts of damage, collecting vuln stacks, etc." which is a very general 'failure to execute mechanics' thing, versus "the game itself is giving me a supposedly-objective concrete numerical rating representing how good this player is at their job". Saying that because we have one it would make no difference to have the other feels 'off' to me; even if someone could be confrontational to a toxic/abusive degree over the first thing (mechanics failures) as well as the second (numerical rating of damage), the latter feels like it would encourage it more (or make people feel more free to really "rip into" folks).

I mean, this is without getting into the fact the supposedly-objective number isn't actually that objective. You could have someone in the baseline gear needed to start a raiding tier and doing their job correctly, while still doing less DPS than someone less-good at the job who happens to have just geared it up better. Witness how something that's a 60% parse in a fight during week #1 of the tier can drop almost by half percentage-wise when you suddenly have a much bigger potential gear ilevel gap in weeks #2 or #3. Moreover, things like healer DPS and suchnot can be highly dependent on how much avoidable damage the rest of the party is taking, and DPS overall can be highly affected by raid buffs -- since any in-game parser would be likely to measure what FFLogs calls aDPS versus the calculated-after-the-fact rDPS value that FFLogs favors.

Yet if you put a damage meter in game, folks will be likely to judge without regard for those factors.

[SieyaM]

A parser alone is not going to help someone who is playing poorly improve. Seeing that your numbers are low without knowing why they are low is useless. So no adding a parser alone is not going to help players improve, and given that the atmosphere right now seems to be "get gud or get out" I doubt adding a parser would encourage people to be helpful in game.

[Katt_Felista]

Oh yeah let's talk about this stupid discrimination and Elitism, today i was kicked from a French Static because i did a bad parse as Main Tank on killing Phoenix savage (9% they said), and then i did a very low parse as a DRK OT on the same fight but still managed to kill the boss anyway. That static was very salty because when training with them we wouldn't even go past the Adds on that fight, and they allow us, after the end of the week final tries / training to do our own attempt at killing the last bosses we can't in static. But they discriminated on me using the final fantasy log website and all it's tools, saying that it was a "bad look" for their progression and overall "rank" in front of everybody else. (despite them feeling like they are in a race, but not even killing p3s after 3 weeks, so, it's very debatable why they did kick me, but they did bringing up parse, bad "ranking" in these websites and all kind of elitist stuff) Funny part being they first recruited me without even announcing they would be that demanding and focused on being "competitive"...

So yeah, people just judge you and even insult you , and be passive agressive to a degree never seen before on more or less underground / hidden types of discord and make you a "bad name" because you parse not so good, even if you have perseverance / are consistant at reaching enrages and then killing the bosses. Funny times.

[IdowhatIwant]

SNIP

I feel like this did not happen mostly cause the story has inconsistencies that don't make sense, but English may not be your first language so what ever. I personally probably would not want to join a static that cares about its rank on FFLOGs as I find that's very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Any mention of that to me I would probably tell them I am out cause I don't really care that much about a video game.
And I also feel you should be aware that 9%, means 91% of people that did that content as your class performed better than you did on that specific run. So maybe you should take some criticism as perhaps you are doing something incorrect that could improve your performance, whether that is from deaths, damage downs, rotation issues, I don't know that's for you to discover but being that low shows there is likely an issue some where. It does sound like you do have some improvement to do before you are 100% ready for savage content though as an average player in this economy should be around 30 - 50%.
I am not sure if you were kicked out or turned down, but I would not consider that elitism, passive aggression or anything. Now if they were actually concerned about there rank on FFLOGs sure I would consider that egotistical but I wasn't there I don't know what was actually said. If I was leading a static, and we had been progging almost a month on p3s I probably would start looking into what the issues are and begin addressing them specially if these issues are consistent. Statics are fun, a team of 8 people trying to achieve a common goal, but it can start getting frustrating when people are being held back because of certain players performances. It is after all a team effort, to kill the boss before enrage timer.

[Katt_Felista]

Text

That static couldn't even go past adds on p3S and i did clear P1S and P2S first week without them, when i joined that static they were pretty slow to learn and they still managed to criticize me for not being pentamelded and doing average to 23% of the overall damage ranking other tanks that would clear P2S, those fights don't really have that much of a "crazy" requirement for dps check or down. That group of persons were just having a huge ego / elitist fit, they allowed the members to do their own training on their free time during the week, and after the third day of raiding with the static, they allow you to go and clear the fight we don't in static.

When i said i cleared p3S it all started going very wrong with them, they begun to be very salty and agressive on the discord , then look into "details" and my gear, kind of mocking the fact i wasn't pentameld, that i did around a 9 to 10% of overall war ranking damage that cleared this P3S fight previously, so not only they used parses / logs to criticize but they also told me that it didn't mean anythingbecause i wasn't logged higher, while they themselves take AGES to learn a fight and it's patterns, positions and all that, while i would stay silent on these issues and keep coming in the static and try to help with some advices on the fight.

They never stated their static was an "elitist" parse / log and "ranking progression" fflog or anything type of static in their recruitement, all they had as an announcement is that they needed a tank to progress into savage raiding.

So yeah, doing that after the fact is pretty shit on their part. Pretty sure that their attitude was that , they were just disgusted that "me" a supposedly "idiot" or average player can down this fight and learn it much faster than them while they still can't figure out how to go past the adds that end of the week, and we were on P3S for 2 weeks with that static when i would already consistently reach the end of the fight / enrages on week 2 so, and i still kept coming into the training even tho i was seeing that it was going very slow, i did not even at one point expressed my opinion on this at any point about the static tho, but when i did clear it, all hell broke loose and the piling on / insults and "look at your gear, look at your parse man, yeah you cleared it but it's very low on the statistics dude , you are a sh*t player" .

The only thing that bother people like that is that average players with just some good will and perseverance, consistency, CAN actually clear these fights, there is no need for gatekeeping through ultra over the top elitist criterias.

There is just a community of gatekeepers and rmt'ers that would like to make you believe you have to do all this B.S. to clear these fight so they can parasitically live off from the game rmt's.

[LittleImp]

When i said i cleared p3S it all started going very wrong with them, they begun to be very salty and agressive on the discord , then look into "details" and my gear, kind of mocking the fact i wasn't pentameld, that i did around a 9 to 10% of overall war ranking damage that cleared this P3S fight previously, so not only they used parses / logs to criticize but they also told me that it didn't mean anythingbecause i wasn't logged higher, while they themselves take AGES to learn a fight and it's patterns, positions and all that, while i would stay silent on these issues and keep coming in the static and try to help with some advices on the fight.

They were probably salty because you got carried through the fight by simply happening to join the right party at the right time. Your low damage and mechanical consistency is very likely a result of sacrificing your rotation/uptime to focus on mechanics, and if everyone in the party played like you, a clear would likely not be mathematically possible. If you haven't optimized a fight to a degree where you're actually pushing your fair share of damage, you haven't really "learned" the fight imo.

For reference, if you're doing 10% tank damage in P3S, you're something like 600+ dps off of what is widely considered to be the minimum expectation for a Tank in p4s. That's a HUGE gap, and unfairly offloads a lot of strain onto other players to make up the difference.