So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Colt47]

So much this! again its not about optimal dps. Its about everyone knowing the fight and making sure to do mechanics properly. This already causes enough drama llama on the community, I dont need to have people telling me "your damage sucks dude" thrown in when its really not the main issue with these fights.

Oh and my problem is being too obsessed with clearing p2s because I made it to 2% enrage, and have spent countless days now in "clear" groups, that are overconfident and end up proving everyone in the group needs practice, including the people who supposedly have it cleared and are coming back to help.

[Packetdancer]

Instances like this is why an ingame way to identify performance could be helpful, but given the state of the community the parser would the "source" of toxicity.

As I've said in other threads, I get the impression the devs believe that if they put a parser officially in-game, some people would take that as permission to harass people using said parser. Basically going "If the devs didn't want me to tell the black mage he sucks because his DPS is almost a negative number, they wouldn't have put a tool in the game that tells me exactly how bad the black mage sucks!"

Unfortunately, my own past experience in the games industry -- and, y'know, the whole "generally existing on the modern internet" thing -- suggests that the devs are also probably right.

Or, to put it another way, "Some players may be inclined to lob spitballs at each other regardless of what we do, but that doesn't mean we need to encourage it by handing them the paper and the straw."

I don't know why the idea that playing optimally = greedy is so common, its really asinine. Playing optimally just means that you don't completely waste your damage by doing very basic things such as buff alignment and proper GCD usage.

"Playing optimally" needs to account for situation, too. If you are doing your rotation correctly, managing solid damage, etc., that's great. If you do all that but, in order to avoid downtime (which is, obviously, not strictly speaking "optimal") you choose to ignore mechanics, then that crosses the line into greed.

I've seen some very high-DPS players in PF for current savage. I have also seen a number of players who, to use a very simple example mechanic, refuse to disengage from the boss for aetherial shackles in P1S and thus kill the entire party; it can be a black mage refusing to leave ley lines they still have a couple seconds left on, it can be melee refusing to leave the boss' butt long enough to go to their shackle spot, whatever. The first folks -- the ones with high DPS -- are playing optimally. The second folks, the ones who refuse to react to the mechanic in a timely manner, cross the line into greed; they value their 'optimal DPS' over the group's survival.

There is a non-zero overlap between those two groups; many of the folks I have seen greed in PF are doing impressive DPS... right up until they kill everyone. (Whether that's with P1S shackles or by dying in P2S right before Channeled Overflow or whatever.)

I think the reason "playing optimally" sometimes gets conflated with "greed" is that the latter group often justifies the behavior as "I'm not greeding, I'm just trying to keep uptime and play my job optimally! Healers should adjust!" (Side note: We cannot adjust if the failed mechanic basically one-shots the party, so please do the dang mechanic. We all want to play our jobs with at least moderate efficiency and skill in savage-level content, but all your DPS means nothing if you wipe the group and don't clear!)

2. How can there be an in-game tutor if the devs themselves have no idea what that optimal rotation is? A parser isn't inherently a toxic or malicious tool, it just displays data from the combat log visually.

To reference my old hypothetical design for a non-toxic in-game parser, you could easily have an NPC combat instructor associated with the Scions whose Echo gift is to perceive another's recent battles. On the server side, it would store off your recent runs of any higher-end content (extremes, etc.) and then you could go to P'ahrsurr Tia and he could tell you, "I can perceive that your combat efficiency was better than 57% of other adventurers who fought similar battles." (I.e., a parse percentage akin to FFLogs.) He could then also give you advice, akin to XIVanalysis, like "I also see that you rarely use your bubble of Asylum; it can be worthwhile to drop on the tank at your side in future adventures, even if it's not going to heal anyone else."

This gives people information which can help them measure their performance relative to others (akin to FFLogs) and a path to take towards improvement (akin to XIVanalysis). But since it's an NPC you would go to speak to after the battle and get the report personally, it would be less likely to be wielded for purposes of toxicity.

Obviously many people would still use ACT, FFLogs, and XIVanalysis -- especially as those tools are very useful for breaking down an overall fight timeline and seeing where a static can improve as a group -- but an approach like this would at least give folks on Playstation and such an option with an in-game tool.

[nighttimebunny]

I really hope this isn't about casual content.

[LittleImp]

I've seen some very high-DPS players in PF for current savage. I have also seen a number of players who, to use a very simple example mechanic, refuse to disengage from the boss for aetherial shackles in P1S and thus kill the entire party;

I'm guessing rather than not disengaging, they were just late to their position or someone else was improperly positioned. Could still be because they're tunneling on their rotation or something, but aetherial Shackles should be completely safe to resolve in melee range of the boss.

[SorrowsEnd]

"quadruple weaving"

there are no dps checks for anything below extreme. You can autoattack normal raid bosses and regular trials to death.

Also in PF groups I'm happy to see someone have food at all, "wrong" or not.

"there are no dps checks for anything below extreme."

The Chrysalis Meteor Phase
Steps Of Faith
Ultima
The Limitless Blue (Hard)
First boss of Dun Scaith
Anything with a Duty Gauge i.e Titania add phase
Ruby Weapon Phase 1
etc etc

Theirs plenty of dps checks normally they are easy however if you have 8 people who "auto attack" or dont know their job by that point you aren't clearing it.

[Rinhi]

I would even go as far as saying this thread (and the many other weekly threads about parsers) are evidence to why we DON'T need them. Look at the toxicity it brings just in discussions.

because some people shit themselves over and over at the mere mention of a parser, it means that it's a bad idea?

euphares said it perfectly

If the XIV commnuity really is one public meter away from becoming a cesspool, then it wasn't a very nice community to begin with and I think most people on this game need a reality check.

[technole]

JP style of not meeting a DPS check tends to be not to call anyone out, abandon duty, and hopefully re-queue RF with better players.

Things like P3 savage tend to be fairly obvious when you are not meeting a check, someone constantly dying before birdies, coming in a late floor with i570 gear, etc.

[Lium]

JP style of not meeting a DPS check tends to be not to call anyone out, abandon duty, and hopefully re-queue RF with better players.

Things like P3 savage tend to be fairly obvious when you are not meeting a check, someone constantly dying before birdies, coming in a late floor with i570 gear, etc.

I was just going to ask this. Is the Japanese community really pushing for parsers? I don't know because I've never played on a JP server.

[Mezzoforte]

Going to be frank, Savage is both amazing content and also the most questionable in terms of community health. It feels like a necessary thing to help justify crafting or pushing crafted high iLvL gear. The only reason I don't like it is due to the hard enrage feeling really artificial or out of place, which thankfully the game does away with by saying it's all in our characters head and not really part of the game world.

There's really only two ways to put a limit on a fight: Either a hard enrage that pulls the ground out from under the players, or finite resources at the players disposal to overcome the challenge. The latter would definitely be better than a dps check since typically a finite resource is accountable in the game world itself. It's very easy to tell if someone runs out of healing potions or if they run out of ammo. For DPS checks the only thing someone can do is check if people are getting damage downs or die repeatedly unless they have a tool to utilize for it. Plus even if someone did have a tool, the information needed to figure out why said person didn't perform can be a myriad of reasons.

Resource death isnt any different than an enrage. Resource death turns into the same finger pointing game because instead of seeing if the dps is high enough you gotta see if the dps per resource expended is high enough. Its the same problem and would require external tools to solve. Because the same idiot who cant do his 123 would be doing the same thing while healers are running out of mana.

[VerdeLuck]

I was just going to ask this. Is the Japanese community really pushing for parsers? I don't know because I've never played on a JP server.

JP mostly plays on console so I seriously doubt they can user parsers, much less want them.