So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Atelier-Bagur]

And as noted, I really don't think just building a DPS meter into the game is a solution to either of those scenarios, for a whole variety of reasons; I think the former one can be solved with some creative design (witness the Google Doc I linked... lord, I don't know, many pages ago), though the second one seems more thorny. But I do agree with others that there's some value in maybe examining those two scenarios.

Honestly I dont have a clear solution to that either. Im not against talking with your team about performance if you keep wiping nor am I trying to ignore dps checks wipes can happen to party finder folks. But thats the thing though, dps meters has such a terrible toxic stigma to them in the MMO community that 9 times out of 10 if you try to explain the mathematics behind their performance that just leads to arguments between both sides and it just becomes toxic. I speak of this from experience and hearing stories of many groups in other games whom just take the numbers waaay too seriously and use it to measure worth of players, its just part of the ugly side of human nature in online game, and its a variable the devs can at least prevent from just not openly supporting the tool into the game.

Personally most of the conflicts I run into are due to people failing mechanics more so than dps, Ive rarely ever run across party wipes where we didnt clear a phase due to everyone not perfectly maximizing dps performance; even with everyone alive, no rez debuffs and we used our LBs. Im not gonna say that your given situation doesnt happen though. The most you can do if you want to talk to random strangers in a party about improving performance is going over their rotations. You shouldnt expect other players to play perfect dps numbers in content, you should expect them to at least understand their job's toolkit and how to use their skills properly.

And yes if that means you keep getting multiple wipes from a dps check, then that just means that you and everyone else arent fully capable of clearing the enrage. If my group keeps wiping in the same exact phase with the same exact makeup (everyone is alive, LB3 usage etc) then I dont need dps meters to understand that we arent clearing the fight because our group cant deal enough damage; either maturally address this to them and if not just bail. I dont hold people against quietly bailing. For the most part if I see obvious human error during wipes then I give them the benefit of the doubt and try again.

[AmiableApkallu]

I mean, I think there's basically two things being brought up.

<snip>

2. As things currently stand, there seems to be a lack of clarity on how folks can address party efficiency in savage or extreme content. I.e., if I make a PF to clear a given fight, and it becomes obvious we cannot clear it due to a lack of actual damage being done to the boss, how can one address this?

If you have a group of reasonable people, whoever is running the parser and has the logs asks, perhaps up front (before the first pull), if everyone is okay discussing that data so that folks can determine what needs to happen to meet the DPS check. Those who are not comfortable with that quietly show themselves the door; those who are left have a productive discussion.

Otherwise, if you have to assume that someone might be unreasonable, your options are necessarily limited to kicking, disbanding, or suffering, because civil conversation won't be an option. And at the point where you have to assume someone might be unreasonable, it's not like an in-game tool or a change to the rules to allow talking about DPS is suddenly going to make those people behave reasonably.

[HappyHubris]

The thing is that back in heavensward, there was a reason to have a tool to assist in figuring out how to do the best damage simply because of how complicated some of the juggling was. Anyone who played Dark Knight during HW knows exactly how crazy that gets, and most people who remember having to manage TP and also remembering to counter boss critical strikes would remember that.

The new age design they have makes damage dealing incredibly simple on the jobs they have streamlined. As long as someone is paying attention to what the new moves are they get and practices properly when leveling up, they will get better and eventually just click things into place.

The main barrier that comes into play to mastering a job is weak content.

You say that, but many players aren't motivated to even do simple things like maintaining DoTs and buffs. Haven't you ever been in a group where the BRD didn't sing or the MNK ignores positionals?

[HappyHubris]

This is why I am against DPS meters being freely used by anyone. I didn't ask you to monitor my DPS I didn't ask you to make sure I was doing optimal DPS. I don't want you to stick your nose in my business period. Because this is exactly how it starts, oh I just want to help give friendly advice, then it turns sour given by those who want to use the information just to beat it over someone else's head. Yes there are those people. It's not anyone else's job to monitor what I or any other player is doing unless you agree to it in advance. I think the developers are smart enough to know there are people out there who are just nasty and would use information to beat up other players. After 8 years I doubt there will be a change in their stance or SE policy. Beating a dead horse here.

This makes sense if you play solo content only or content without enrages. But if you join a group that is trying to beat an enrage and will waste their time if you can't perform, then yes they have a vested interest in what you're doing.

If you wiped 20 times in a savage b/c your tank didn't bother with mitigation cooldowns, would your reaction be "well it's none of my business"? Weak DPS does the same thing.

[Snorky]

Exhibit A of what? People tired of you making up implausible scenarios in your head so you can whine about things that don't affect you in content you don't do? I hardly think I'm the first, maybe the most tired though.

*Edited in case you think I'm one of those people either doing that content or running a parse in roulettes. A cursory glance (ya know, doing any sort of due diligence before spraying the foam from your mouth all over these forums) would make it pretty clear I don't do either.

There is absolutely no reason for you to be this agressivetowsrds me none. You are the very kind of person who would use these tools to beat others up. You can't even accept the fact that I have a different opinion than you do. I didn't make up any scenarios there are too many people who have had bad experiences because of this need to monitor others in a game. But hey I'm glad Yoshi P recognizes the fact people use these tools to abuse also and gate others.

[Rinhi]

There is absolutely no reason for you to be this agressivetowsrds me

I don't see any aggression, but I see someone having no counter arguments so they resort to cheap manipulation to stifle a discussion they themselves initiated to weasel themselves out
very nice of you to assume that they don't accept your opinion because, well, uh, you just know, right? can't go a post without demonizing some imaginary enemy to paint yourself in a good light
you know what? I'll even go so far to say that more people have had bad experiences with horribly bad and toxic players and their entitled attitude than people have had with getting shamed for their damage numbers
my proof? well, I just know

[Snorky]

I don't see any aggression, but I see someone having no counter arguments so they resort to cheap manipulation to stifle a discussion they themselves initiated to weasel themselves out
very nice of you to assume that they don't accept your opinion because, well, uh, you just know, right? can't go a post without demonizing some imaginary enemy to paint yourself in a good light
you know what? I'll even go so far to say that more people have had bad experiences with horribly bad and toxic players and their entitled attitude than people have had with getting shamed for their damage numbers
my proof? well, I just know

I gave my reasons you just didn't like them so hence the insults you are dealing out. All of which just reinforces my belief people can't be trusted to be responsible enough to use the information in a respectful way. I hope they never allow these programs my evidence is the last three posts directed towards me for having a different opinion. That the information gained will be used to beat others over the head more than not. Oh and btw I can have an opinion and not do savage content. You are truly trying to gate people from even having an opinion about it seriously it's not a good look for pro parser folks.

[Colt47]

You say that, but many players aren't motivated to even do simple things like maintaining DoTs and buffs. Haven't you ever been in a group where the BRD didn't sing or the MNK ignores positionals?

Of course I have. I also remember back in ARR when I was a noob running around with a gladiator sword and could barely make it through some of the early guildhests and job quests. Boy have we come a long way since then.

That kind of problem isn't from a lack of tools. The reason that we got that happening is the content being way too easy. People are not being forced into having to use those skills, so they naturally don't learn to use them. Right now the only place that forces optimization is savage. We need content that pushes people hard. People should wipe and die and lose progress. After all, a part of playing a game and having that rush of enjoyment is having felt the sting of loss.

I'm a firm believer that if a community has people complaining about hardship, than we are in a good place and should stay there.

[Ayche]

To repeat in that other thread that was also about this, especially public PF groups are very much part of the public space.
You cannot take your self-imposed standards into public PF, especially if you made absolutely no attempt to broadcast in the PF posting itself.

[Divinemights]

Seeing this discussion I can see why Yoship and his team didn't try to bring back FF11's sub job system to FF14 when there is a popular demand for it.
There is no way they can balance sub job system when players has a 3rd party tool and nitpicking on the DPS output.
Kinda really miss the endless potential with FF11's sub job system such as WAR/NIN, NIN/RNG, PLD/NIN, WAR/DRK, etc
So much interesting gameplays....