So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Azuri]

Use the thing anyway, determine the free loaders, kick them without saying a word. "Difference in Playstyle". Simple.

[Ath192]

Without third party tools tell me exactly how you would be able to suggest, or even observe areas that need improvement?


-Combat log is unreliable.
-There's no fight history.
-No offensive buff tracker.
-No defensive buff tracker.
-Tracking stats doesn't exist.
-Damage down debuffs have no value associated with them.




You would literally have to manually calculate total potencies of every single job, then compare them to each other, then calculate every single potency interaction in the game just to get a grasp on what could be considered "playing right."




Furthermore, it is pretty blatantly obvious the devs themselves use FFlogs/ACT statistics in regards to balance. There really is zero reason to attempt to make these tools "taboo" outside of wanting to avoid percieved toxicity (which still exists anyways.)

Even with it being against TOS I've seen plenty of PFs saying purple plus or requiring some sort of average to run with them, the moment they make it acceptable and official you will see a giant wave of gatekeeping and discrimination happening. I see it in private discords all the time.

While it is a useful tool, and I ALSO think the devs themselves use it to balance their classes (which would explain why they are always making adjustments after they release a new expansion and realize hmmmm that doesnt look good), I fail to see a better approach than the one they have taken. Yes, it creates pettiness and passive aggressiveness, but it does a better job of forcing everyone together and making everyone put up with each other.

Many players may not want that, but the devs sure do want their entire playerbase playing together. There's also a risk of the raiding scene becoming so divided the pools of people they are willing to do content with are too small and they may just get bored or quit. They have very legitimate reasons for fearing making a tool like that official. But either route they take will have assets and drawbacks.

[SenorPatty]

When I look at the aggro list and see the dragoon below the summoner, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone doesn't know how to play their class.

*Laughs in 2nd place dps shown in ACT latest 8man raid as SAM but listed as 4th place aggro".

Yes, aggro list "very accurate" in showing who doesn't know how to play their job.

[Raelsar]

Just based on my own observations and experience (mostly over a decade of WoW), these are the general issues with parsers / DPS meters:

• Parsers are CHRONICALLY misused and misinterpreted, very few people actually use them properly. More often than not, they're just used by people to stroke their own egos.
• More often than not, parsers enable harassment and other bad behaviours. You have to remember, jerks don't need a good reason to bother someone. They just need an excuse. You'll instantly see a lot more people call others "bad" under the flimsiest of excuses than see anyone take the time to analyze and advise how to improve performance, far more harassment than constructive criticism & assistance.
• Moving into the more subtle psychological effects of parsers, they push the community to place a lot more value on performance and subsequently the culture becomes significantly more competitive... and it's not the friendly type of competition either. As noted in the previous two points, you see a lot more misuse of the tool and abuse of other players than actual benefits socially.
• A very subtle one, but players stop paying attention to mechanics or even outright ignoring them in a bid to increase their performance on the meters. While both matter, measuring something tends to make it a lot more important to person doing the measuring for some reason.

While this game does have DPS checks (actually quite frequently, though those in the default difficulty for content are quite generous and usually restricted to intermission phases)... the developers have made it perfectly clear, they don't want people to obsess over the damage output. It just causes too many social issues.

We're here to enjoy the experience, not squabble over someone's performance not being "optimal".

[Slayer25c]

Without third party tools tell me exactly how you would be able to suggest, or even observe areas that need improvement?


-Combat log is unreliable.
-There's no fight history.
-No offensive buff tracker.
-No defensive buff tracker.
-Tracking stats doesn't exist.
-Damage down debuffs have no value associated with them.




You would literally have to manually calculate total potencies of every single job, then compare them to each other, then calculate every single potency interaction in the game just to get a grasp on what could be considered "playing right."




Furthermore, it is pretty blatantly obvious the devs themselves use FFlogs/ACT statistics in regards to balance. There really is zero reason to attempt to make these tools "taboo" outside of wanting to avoid percieved toxicity (which still exists anyways.)

Why would they use fflogs when they have the numbers

[Kolaina]

*Laughs in 2nd place dps shown in ACT latest 8man raid as SAM but listed as 4th place aggro".

Yes, aggro list "very accurate" in showing who doesn't know how to play their job.

As you probably fail to consider a tank is one of the higher on aggro but lower in dps…

[Euphares]

Even with it being against TOS I've seen plenty of PFs saying purple plus or requiring some sort of average to run with them, the moment they make it acceptable and official you will see a giant wave of gatekeeping and discrimination happening. I see it in private discords all the time.

While it is a useful tool, and I ALSO think the devs themselves use it to balance their classes (which would explain why they are always making adjustments after they release a new expansion and realize hmmmm that doesnt look good), I fail to see a better approach than the one they have taken. Yes, it creates pettiness and passive aggressiveness, but it does a better job of forcing everyone together and making everyone put up with each other.

Many players may not want that, but the devs sure do want their entire playerbase playing together. There's also a risk of the raiding scene becoming so divided the pools of people they are willing to do content with are too small and they may just get bored or quit. They have very legitimate reasons for fearing making a tool like that official. But either route they take will have assets and drawbacks.

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.



You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad, the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.


This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well. But can you blame either person? It sucks having people who don't pull their weight constantly hold a group hostage because no one can say anything to them. And it sucks trying to learn and feeling lost/overwhelmed because you have to go off the game to learn how to be better in the game.


Yes having a public meter would lead to an increase in toxicity, but just crackdown on it more harshly. They can afford to hire more gm's/mods to do this, but making meters so convoluted and hush-hush to get is denying a lot of players, specifically console players from having any way to learn and/or improve. Which simply doesn't work in a game where there is very difficult group content.



If the devs don't want players curating other players, then they need to put in work to make the game do it instead.

Why would they use fflogs when they have the numbers

Numbers are useless unless meaning is put behind them. Seeing that most people are playing RPR/MNK right now won't really tell you the why behind it.


RDPS/ADPS/NDPS don't exist anywhere in the game or combat log. These are metrics that exist soley because of FFlogs, as such, the devs have the data on their end, but what can they do with it? There is nothing wrong with them using FFlogs to determine balance. I find it to be a good thing. But it is def a thing that happens, I'm like 90% sure of it.

[Ath192]

I mean it is mostly a symptom of a bigger problem which is: The game has a terrible feedback loop.



You quite literally have zero way to tell if you are playing good or bad, the game doesn't help you or challenge you in a way that would make you rethink your rotation. Someone could play Ice-only BLM until max level because the game won't ever tell you that's wrong, or have you fail because you are spamming Ice spells only.


This is a serious problem, because the moment someone DOES tell you that you are playing wrong, its a big shock, and a lot of people don't handle this shock very well. But can you blame either person? It sucks having people who don't pull their weight constantly hold a group hostage because no one can say anything to them. And it sucks trying to learn and feeling lost/overwhelmed because you have to go off the game to learn how to be better in the game.


Yes having a public meter would lead to an increase in toxicity, but just crackdown on it more harshly. They can afford to hire more gm's/mods to do this, but making meters so convoluted and hush-hush to get is denying a lot of players, specifically console players from having any way to learn and/or improve. Which simply doesn't work in a game where there is very difficult group content.



If the devs don't want players curating other players, then they need to put in work to make the game do it instead.





Numbers are useless unless meaning is put behind them. Seeing that most people are playing RPR/MNK right now won't really tell you the why behind it.


RDPS/ADPS/NDPS don't exist anywhere in the game or combat log. These are metrics that exist soley because of FFlogs, as such, the devs have the data on their end, but what can they do with it? There is nothing wrong with them using FFlogs to determine balance. I find it to be a good thing. But it is def a thing that happens, I'm like 90% sure of it.

Yes. I would support a score card at the end of every normal and savage raid only you can see about your performance alone with tips.

Like C+:
You clipped too much
You interrupted several spells!

No one would have to know but you and it would help a lot.

[Kolsykol]

Ah yes, '' quadruple weave gcd's ''.

[Quintessa]

I don't even want to know how you quad weave a GCD.