Non instanced dungeons. An under-looked game design method in XI

[Hulan]

I have felt for a while that one of the largest things that is missing from FFXIV is the "journey", by it metaphorical or literal. In a way, it has matured before it's time. In FFXI, after you had played for a few years, you could easily zip around wherever you wanted. But those few years where you could not were important; they allowed you to grow with the world. In FFXIV, there is no maturation period, any content is a mere moment's walk away.

The problem is, I am not all together convinced that the current MMO population could support that style of play anymore. There is an expectation that "fun" content be accessible on a moment's notice. Which, in a way, isn't wrong. Enjoyable content should be easily accessed. FFXIV, though, seems to have forgotten that the journey can be just as fun as the destination. Long, grueling hikes though zones is not fun. But long, exciting ones can be. The balance is incredibly fine.

Another thing that SE did that contributed to the uniqueness of FFXI's world was how it was woven together. There are any number of zones that are not just connected to another zone, but woven into it, part of a while. Temple of Uggalepih comes to mind immediately. The temple was not some vestigial appendage of Yhoator Jungle, it was a vital part of it.

[Hachi-Roku]

And shut your trap about Batok.

never, always lastok

---


Also,

Journey.
Destination.
Different things.

MoonKeeperr said the trip to Bastok was fun and I completely agree. I remember my first trip to Bastok from Windy at low levels too. Without maps I had to ask directions from pretty much everyone I saw. It was more fun than most of the quests in any FF game and kept me up all night until I finally made it to the waterfall bridge.

The trip to pretty much anywhere was amazing and especially for those who started XI late in it's lifetime like I did.

If this is what you mean to say, say it! It gets the point across better than vague bolding and italics.

That being said, I have nothing against enjoying the journey to Bastok. Or the journey to and from anywhere in XI, really. I soloed reaching the various COR unlock spots as a solo 40-ish WHM, saved only by my castings of Sneak/Invis and still got eaten by chigoes/Imps a few times. Getting the key, working around to Arrapagio Reef- it was a real pain in the butt but dangit I was determined to become a pirate. O'course, then they make the cooldown on the ??? Lamian Fang Key one day instead of a conquest week, and I became an old curmudgeon talking about how 'kids these days have it so easy.'

I told my cousin about this, of the hoops I had to jump through to clear some of this stuff solo, and he just gave me a strange look, bewildered that I would go through so much trouble.

I have felt for a while that one of the largest things that is missing from FFXIV is the "journey", by it metaphorical or literal. In a way, it has matured before it's time. In FFXI, after you had played for a few years, you could easily zip around wherever you wanted. But those few years where you could not were important; they allowed you to grow with the world. In FFXIV, there is no maturation period, any content is a mere moment's walk away.

Now, I didn't start playing FFXI until far later in its life (after most things but before WotG was finished and before Abyssea even started). And this is more or less true: I looked forward to landmarks such as beating Magicite so I could get my airship pass. That was something I could look and work forward to, and when I finally did it, I immediately got an airship to nowhere just to ride it. Then there was restricted access to some areas that was annoying, like gathering Kazham keys.

Genuine question, with no malice: if SE had tied anima usage to progress in the main story quest, maybe something alongside the Echo, would it be seen in a less negative light?

That would have never ever happened with any kind of probability though, as even under Tanaka the focus of XIV was to be able to allow solo players to (a) progress in some manner and not be as reliant on groups while (b) under time constraints, which is what guildleves are really about- bitesized bumps of XP that you can do while alone and get XP/gil out of it. To really do that, you need to get to XP camps quickly.

An example a friend of mine brings up about travel time is the Einherjar event in XI: it would never start on time due to people missing the ferry and having to wait. SE wanted to eliminate that, and they did- until we have to assault Castrum Novum in Mor Dhona. I should go find out how far away from the camp it is.

[Gramul]

never, always lastok

Shut up filthy Elzen!

If this is what you mean to say, say it!

He totally did.

[...]my first trip to Bastok at a lower level was fun.

Dunno how you can be any clearer than that.

[Seif]

never, always lastok

---


Also,





If this is what you mean to say, say it! It gets the point across better than vague bolding and italics.

That being said, I have nothing against enjoying the journey to Bastok. Or the journey to and from anywhere in XI, really. I soloed reaching the various COR unlock spots as a solo 40-ish WHM, saved only by my castings of Sneak/Invis and still got eaten by chigoes/Imps a few times. Getting the key, working around to Arrapagio Reef- it was a real pain in the butt but dangit I was determined to become a pirate. O'course, then they make the cooldown on the ??? Lamian Fang Key one day instead of a conquest week, and I became an old curmudgeon talking about how 'kids these days have it so easy.'

I told my cousin about this, of the hoops I had to jump through to clear some of this stuff solo, and he just gave me a strange look, bewildered that I would go through so much trouble.



Now, I didn't start playing FFXI until far later in its life (after most things but before WotG was finished and before Abyssea even started). And this is more or less true: I looked forward to landmarks such as beating Magicite so I could get my airship pass. That was something I could look and work forward to, and when I finally did it, I immediately got an airship to nowhere just to ride it. Then there was restricted access to some areas that was annoying, like gathering Kazham keys.

Genuine question, with no malice: if SE had tied anima usage to progress in the main story quest, maybe something alongside the Echo, would it be seen in a less negative light?

That would have never ever happened with any kind of probability though, as even under Tanaka the focus of XIV was to be able to allow solo players to (a) progress in some manner and not be as reliant on groups while (b) under time constraints, which is what guildleves are really about- bitesized bumps of XP that you can do while alone and get XP/gil out of it. To really do that, you need to get to XP camps quickly.

An example a friend of mine brings up about travel time is the Einherjar event in XI: it would never start on time due to people missing the ferry and having to wait. SE wanted to eliminate that, and they did- until we have to assault Castrum Novum in Mor Dhona. I should go find out how far away from the camp it is.

You have a point.

We have many awesome things in our use right now but they all feel a bit bland because we didn't have to do anything to get it. Now all that is left is getting just ever so slightly better gear.

I remember that epicness of FINALLY getting the airship pass. It was like the doors of heaven opening to me.
XIV's rewards don't have anything that special yet but let's hope some of the missed opportunities are going to be put to use in 2.0.

We already know they're doing this for the maps but l hope that's only the tip of the iceberg of meaningful goodies they have the courage to lock away.

[Preypacer]

The problem is, I am not all together convinced that the current MMO population could support that style of play anymore. There is an expectation that "fun" content be accessible on a moment's notice. Which, in a way, isn't wrong. Enjoyable content should be easily accessed. FFXIV, though, seems to have forgotten that the journey can be just as fun as the destination. Long, grueling hikes though zones is not fun. But long, exciting ones can be. The balance is incredibly fine.

You make a good point there. The journey is just as fun as it's ever been - for someone who can appreciate it.

What's really changed is the expectations. What more and more people are considering fun these days is "getting better loot" and "leveling up more quickly". The pay-off is the motivator, and the journey is just a "necessary evil" they have to deal with to acquire it. Sad but true.

It doesn't even need to be stated outright, just look at how many arguments there are for higher drop rates, faster leveling, people who don't want PL'ing to be reigned in and, in fact, think the PL level rate is the way it should be anyway. Their sense of enjoyment (satisfaction, achievement, what-have-you) is derived from "getting things", be it levels or a better item drop. This much is abundantly clear just by reading the various arguments and suggestions that pop up time and again in the forums. It's equally abundant in seeing what ideas or gameplay concepts people are against. Many times, what someone has chosen to argue about says a lot more about their point-of-view than the argument itself.

Another thing that SE did that contributed to the uniqueness of FFXI's world was how it was woven together. There are any number of zones that are not just connected to another zone, but woven into it, part of a while. Temple of Uggalepih comes to mind immediately. The temple was not some vestigial appendage of Yhoator Jungle, it was a vital part of it.

Excellent point. You could say the same about Horutoto Ruins and Eldiemme Necropolis, how both of those areas are sort of "woven" into their parent zones.

[Hulan]

What more and more people are considering fun these days is "getting better loot" and "leveling up more quickly". The pay-off is the motivator, and the journey is just a "necessary evil" they have to deal with to acquire it. Sad but true.

I do not think you can call them "wrong" for holding that believe though. We are each of us here to have fun. There is no "wrong" way to have fun, baring the outright greifing of others. I myself have argued in favor of changing the trend of using a pRNG to determine drops. Not to reduce the effort required to get gear, but because I honestly thing that it is a sledgehammer being used when a needle would be a better tool; but that is a discussion for another time.

While I don't think we can call the trend of rampant gear consumerism "wrong". I do think something has been lost in translation. If I were to pick one example to use as dogma for future designs, it would be 2-5 from FFXI's CoP. I am not, in this case, referring to the difficulty of the fight (though I do enjoy it immensely), but rather the fact that the journey was part of the event. Getting to Monarch Linn could be almost as difficult as the fight itself. While not appropriate for every case, I think it's a great single example of how the trip to the destination can be just as important and compelling as the event at the end.

Excellent point. You could say the same about Horutoto Ruins and Eldiemme Necropolis, how both of those areas are sort of "woven" into their parent zones.

The world itself is woven together much more tightly than FFXIV, for all of the fact that the former was zone based and the latter was seamless. The ability, for instance, to access special areas of Batallia Downs by travelling through Beaucedine Glacier, seemingly several zones away.