Non instanced dungeons. An under-looked game design method in XI

[DarthTaru]

Excellent OP. Very insightful. Maybe i'm enjoying it all the more because it's in the same spirit of my lodestone blog from this morning. I'm just in an FFXI sorta mood lately.

If FFXIV becomes all about instanced raids i'm going to be utterly disappointed. I hate to say it because I dedicate a lot of time to the game, but if they intend to make a Final Fantasy WoW i'll quit. The wonderful thing about open world NMs and open world HNMs and open world everything, is that the result of open world is a living, breathing environment. It gives zones meaning and depth and purpose. They become somethings domain rather than just an obstacle to suffer on the way to an instance. Who would have fond (or at least entertaining) memories of Dragon's Aery if it was just the entrance to an instance where you fight Fafnir behind closed doors?

Notice you never hear any epic stories or fond memories told about the KS99 Wyrm but hear them by the hundreds about peoples wars against Nidhogg.

This might be getting a little off your original topic but I think it's still all within the same vein.

I read a lot of the posts on these forums and if Yoshi P is designing the game around them I worry about the future state and direction of this game. We'll see what 2.0 brings.

[Elexia]

You say you haven't played the game much and then say the area's aren't memorable well d'uh

C`mon now, most of XIV's world is unmemorable and very forgetable, especially the world design but this is true with MMOs that are going the instanced route. XIV has maybe 1 or 2 memorable world locations and we all know what it is (The dead Wyrm wrapped around the downed Garlean airship and Coerthas highlands.)

Yet if you ask anyone who truly played FFXI, and I mean who actually did the story and read it and more than just "LOOT LOOT LOOT!" people will tell you dozens of memorable things about XI's world or story...XIV's story is so convoluted by trying to make us more special than we really are (also so suddenly as well) and given the copy/pasted nature of the world (though it doesn't bother me because I know why it's done) it's very forgetful.

It's not just a few people who thinks this, hundreds of thousands think this. For example:



This will strike emotion in a lot of people and bring back fond memories to people, not because of Nostalgia but because the area was just absolutely beautifully designed, no one can forget their time wandering around the open air section of this dungeon and getting just absolutely buttpounded by Groundskeepers because they walked too close to the light or how magic was basically disallowed in the majority of this area, which is classic FF...in XIV? I guess the underground network in Thanalan is cool.

Sure you'll definitely argue "but that's from an expansion!"...yes, but XIV's area rival the size of almost 4 regions per yet it's still very unmemorable...and if you can't agree that's a problem, then well, that's quite unfortunate.

[Isaveron]

Yet if you ask anyone who truly played FFXI, and I mean who actually did the story and read it and more than just "LOOT LOOT LOOT!" .

No, I'm sure those people played the game too. You don't dictate how someone plays the game.

[Tupsi]

I agree, Final Fantasy XI probably has one of the most amazing world designs I've seen in an MMO and it was the tiny details that really made it stand out from the rest -- It wasn't fully living or breathing in the sense that it dynamically changed, but open world dungeons made it feel more alive if anything. I hope with 2.0 they don't go fully instanced route and at least strike a balance.

No, I'm sure those people played the game too. You don't dictate how someone plays the game.

For as long as I've lurked I notice you do almost nothing but stalk her posts just to attack everything she writes -- this makes you petty especially since she had a perfectly reasonable point -- I'm going to assume you never played FFXI or gotten very far but people in that (and most online games) only care for one thing: Loot, so in order to fully experience something as another poster said you have to really pay attention to the world around you and the story & lore, so she wasn't dictating how someone played the game, it's called common sense -- if you don't read every page of a book or watch every scene of a movie, how can you say you really experienced it?

[Alfortis]

Hello everyone and thanks for all the reply's and insight. Just to make sure I give the right message, this is not an anti-dungeon raid thread. I love dungeon raids in MMOs and I hope they never get rid of them. Its good content because it prevents the game from being repetitive and gives a fast pace feeling to the game. I am for raids along with other content that will give a different element to the game such as an airship rail shooter (like in kingdom hearts 2) and optional risk-reward boss fights.

I see what others are saying though. If the dungeons do become the central point of the game then the game will not have a significant identity. Without a games identity to back it up, it will be perceived as just another mmo game. Once the games is perceived as "just some mmo", it is no different than a box that just says cereal on it.

[Oreth]

Having played FFXI since early 2005 I can agree whole heartily with what people want and what they are looking for. I think its apparent that this game just lacks on the 90% of the levels when compared to not just FFXI but majority of other MMOs.

I think the biggest problem is what people got out of FFXI they simply wont ever get that back again, its something i think iv come to realize. It was my first MMO so it had that effect on me, i was amazed, loved connecting with people from all around the world. Prior to that all my online play was from FPS games so that was very linear in itself. Im talking early days too like the MSN Gaming zone etc. FFXI didn't give me that linear feeling i could do what i wanted when i wanted. This isnt me big upping FFXI btw because it certainly had its flaws. I honestly dont think its possible for the majority of us to capture that again, we might get close and hopefully SE can deliver but that true feeling of accomplishment, friendship, exploration and overall joy is just bound to the first dedicated experience to the genre. Thats why i think so much of the community still hang on to WoW, many just dont want to let go.

Thats just my 2c... Maybe its because im older but i dont think i will get that feeling back no matter what they do.

[Cross]

One of the best threads I ever saw here.

Even though I doubt that 2.0 will have tons of fixes, I do hope that we arent seeing any "great" strongholds due to the server limitations at this time.
With 2.0 they may find their way to more openworld-Dungeons, even if that takes 1 to 2 addons till these arrive ingame.
I lost the interest in all those instanced-thingies and the openworld area hasnt that much to offer at the moment.

and lil offtopic for OP:
For myself I even enjoyed Uggalepih Temple (I guess that was meant with Yuhtunga Temple )!
You could spent hours inside this temple just to farm, explore and NM-hunting. It was fun having the Tonberry Kinq that aggroed you if he is about to spawn while you are standing on his throne.
I had tons of fun in that temple

[Hachi-Roku]

Pros:
Environments with a deep meaning behind them.
Players feeling comfortable with the area and it being a part of their life
Less development hassle since the deeper zones are still the same theme
Quality zones over Quantity zones

This is almost point for point what the devs are aiming for in 2.0, even doing away with the zoneless world concept to focus even more on doing so (though I think they could have both of "super specialized zones" and "no zonelines" but I'm not gonna get into the technical aspect of such in this thread).

Call me crazy, but I have a fair bit of familiarity with La Noscea as well. The geography of Iron Lake and surrounding bits is nestled between more walls than most of the La Noscean areas, with thinner paths. It's also the only area with, y'know, a lake, where I often see people mining and fishing along the dormice. To the west of that is a camp of level 40 raptors, where I would do EXP parties with some of my friends. When I had to go afk, I'd say that I was running to the "goat bowl" - a little dip in the ground south of the camp where only nannygoats grazed, that way I wouldn't draw aggro from spawning raptors. Bloodshore's actual shore is awkward to get to, but it's also rather dense with foilage, where the giant grabs bubble about before the path that leads to Wineport. To the south is the Red Rooster Stead, where Goobbues are summoned. Brigands are just to the east of the Bald Knoll camp, so always head up the hills around them lest you risk becoming lamed, and the Great Buffalo stomps about just north of there. Also to the north is a small valley where two Earth Elementals spawn- what a peculiar place for them to be. I like doing crafting leves in La Noscea because a majority of the camps are in a circular pattern. If I have leves to turn in at Skull Valley, Iron Lake, and Bloodshore, it's not like running from Drybone and then back over to Horizon, or navigating the Black Shroud. I can run up to Skull Valley, dash past kobolds and raptors to Iron Lake, and then keep going east to Bloodshore. I don't have to backtrack between a majority of the camps, and if I teleport at all, it'll be to Bald Knoll just because it's the odd one out. It's a shame there's locked doors in Mistbeard Cove- I was pretty excited when I got to go behind one of them in one of the live events. Near the entrance to Limsa Lominsa, just a bit to the northwest, there's a cave that leads to a spot where Urianger appears now, but it also has a great open view of the sea and LL. Shposhae. The craziness that is U'ghamoro, where even a group of 50s sticks to the walls, lest entire rooms of kobolds attack and knock us all about with their AoEs.

And, I mean, this is just La Noscea. I could go on into Thanalan as well, though not as in depth. (Meteor can't hit the Black Shroud fast enough though. The hamlets are cool looking, but the Shroud itself is pain.) Coerthas is absolutely gigantic and sprawling. I'd spend more time in Mor Dhona if I had a raise buddy with me at all times.

Admittedly, what XIV doesn't normally have a lot of, in comparison to XI, are stark, immediately recognizable landmarks, which are coming in 2.0. I'm sure I'll love those zones too, and that they'll be interesting, and I'll be able to poke around them and learn little tidbits, find optimal routes, make new camps. But for now, looking back on what I know about Eorzea, I can't say it's simply a cut-and-paste experience.

[MoonKeeperr]

i agree also, i remember my first day in FFXI i was so overtaken by how the sky looked and there was birds flying, and my first trip to Bastok at a lower level was fun.

[Hachi-Roku]

i agree also, i remember my first day in FFXI i was so overtaken by how the sky looked and there was birds flying, and my first trip to Bastok at a lower level was fun.

I call BS, Bastok was never fun.