so apparently Sage dealing a raid wide Aoe to his group is working as intended

[Shuuli]

But I don't understand how is that shield granting less?

Adlo nullifies damage equaling 180% of the amount of HP restored.
While Succor creates a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 160% of the amount of HP restored

Meanwhile:
Eukrasian Prognosis erects a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 320% of the amount of HP restored

So it makes sense that it should be higher potency shield.

So technically what could happen is that a sage is lower item level or materia is not equipped so you would grant higher final numbers based on the original %. But in theory, if both of you has the same item level and materia setup, Sage numbers should be higher... or am I missing something here?

This is a bit strange of a topic because you can only prove your numbers to them if you log your fight data while working with a sage... but logging data is "illegal"... sooooooo. Hard situation.

[RinaShinomiya]

But I don't understand how is that shield granting less?

Adlo nullifies damage equaling 180% of the amount of HP restored.
While Succor creates a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 160% of the amount of HP restored

Meanwhile:
Eukrasian Prognosis erects a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 320% of the amount of HP restored

So it makes sense that it should be higher potency shield.

You need to read the full tooltip
Succor restores 200 potency HP and erects a barrier scaling 160% of the restored amount, meaning the barrier erected is 200 x 1.6 = 320 Potency Barrier.
E.Prognosis restores 100 potency HP and erects a barrier scaling 320% of the restored amount, meaning the barrier erected is 100 x 3.2 = 320 Potency Barrier.
They're both the same Shields.

Adlo is 300 x 1.8 = 540 potency barrier
If you crit heal you get an additional 540 potency barrier.
With Deplo that's a AoE shield of 540 potency since Catalyze isn't being transferred but since we're using crit heal values that's a really strong 540 potency shield.
In comparison best thing SGE can do for AoE shielding is Zoe E.Prognosis which is 150 x 3.2 = 480 which can still crit but its unreliable so despite almost matching Adlo+deplo potency its still a weaker shield.

[Comfort]

When in 8/24 man normal content with another shield healer (sage or scholar) I just never use GCD shields. If the other healer wants to use shields or not its up to them. Either neither of us is wasting GCDs with an over written shield or neither of us use them.

In harder content I am usually healing with the same dude so we just co-ordinate.

I would love for them to update it so that a stronger shield cannot be over written.

At worst add a cap on GCD shield amounts and let them stack up to that amount where the shield casted last gets the brunt of the cap. (But I wouldn't care for this anyway).

[Seraphor]

this explains my confusion about why it was labelled "works as intended", thanks, but with AST you could just use your other buff and not run nocturnal, soo it wasn't really an issue. on SCH+SGE you dont have that option

Thing is a good Sage doesn't use GCD heals at all outside of prepull or dire emergencies.
If there's a predictable raidwide comingn you use one of your many mitigation oGCDs, or a Panhaima.

[Kacho_Nacho]

tl;dr:
Sage's Eukrasian Prognosis/Diagnosis can overwrite Scholar's buffed Galvanize shield, even if it would provide a 99% lower shield



---

I opened 2 bug reports, one was moved to insufficient information (ok, makes sense, my bad https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...olars-Barriers)
and the second one was moved to "working as intended"
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...vanize-shields

The steps to reproduce this are really simple and everyone can ruin his co-healers life try it out:
1. Scholar uses "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics", granting the whole Group a boosted effect of "Galvanize"
2. Sage uses Eukrasian Prognosis
3. Group gets hit by a raid wide AoE from the Sage (lul), aka magicked barrier overwrites boosted Galvanize effect of the Scholar, resulting in a much smaller barrier.

The problem is that only stronger Scholar Shields can overwrite Sage Shields, while Sage can overwrite Scholar Shields with (much) weaker ones, which results in wasted cooldowns, indirect damage (or if timed poorly direct damage) to the whole party.

e.g.:
- 1 to 8 player(s) in your group eat some dmg and fall to 5k HP. the boss begins to cast a raid wide AoE dealing 10k HP.
(Players at 5k HP)
- Scholar begins casting his usual "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics" combo with maybe some additional heal boosting buffs, spreading a 7k HP shield to the whole group, enough to survive the incoming raid wide AoE
(Players at 12k HP)
- The Sage casts Eukrasian Prognosis, mostly unbuffed, overwriting the Galvanize Shield with a 2k HP shield. Effectively dealing a 5k raid wide AoE to his group.
(Players at 7k HP)
Boss finishes his raid wide AoE cast and deals 10k HP. everyone dies
(Players at -3k HP, aka ded)

I know this example is extreme and would rarely occur in real situations, and that in a single target case the scholar would cast buffed Adloquium on the player who made the mistake, which would then also heal him and give him another shield which cannot be overwritten (at least not from the E.Prognosis) and that E.P also heals a bit, but the example shows how a Sage can in 100% of situations where he is paired with a scholar and the scholar uses his go-to 90s CD AoE shield, deal a raid wide AoE to his own group. and this is working as intended.

Real Gameplay Example in the first comment as it's too long to include here apparently.

Thank you for bringing this up! I'll now watch out for this when I play Sage.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I was wondering if weaker shields remove stronger ones. but since SGE can cast shields quicker, i can only suggest waiting till the very last second... but this of course is an issue since SCH takes longer to cast them, and because SGE has the equivalent of a 1s cast shield (due to double 0.5s animation locks), they are more likely to not play proactively, but reactively when they see the cast bar, and just shield reflexively.
(essentially i play SGE as my replacement to shield AST, solely due to my poor memory, and needing a quicker cast shield, excluding swift cast shield, as SCH would be quicker, making it effectively a 0.5s cast. So ive been guilty of this, though id rather not be, its just too hard to break the habbit in the heat of the moment)

[YusiKha]

It’s the pepsis priority.
In HW->ShB, Galvanise and Nocturnal Field would overwrite each other regardless of sizes. Since SGE can consume eukrasian diagnosis/prognosis for pepsis, and gain stacks of toxicon from eukrasian diagnosis, those effects have priority over galvanise.

[ty_taurus]

real gameplay example:
Pandaemonium 3rd Circle.

I (Scholar) get matched with a Sage. Before the Fight starts I cast my usual buffed combination of "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics".
Sage immediately casts E.Prognosis afterwards, reducing shields of everyone, requiring earlier and more heals, wasting more oGCDs (next to the 60s, 2x 90s and 120s oGCDs wasted already) and reducing dmg output of both healers.

Phoinix readys a raid wide AoE, I again cast my "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics" to shield the group. Sage again overcasts it by E.Prognosis.
I now wasted 4 oGCDs again and have to top up the group as instead of the shield eating the dmg, they got "HP-DMG" which needs to be healed (and the Sage dealt "Shield-DMG" to the group, by reducing the shield to a fraction)

This happened throughout the whole fight on every occasion.

Have you by chance thought to talk with your cohealer when pairing with a Sage? I won't say you haven't, but I feel like if you just communicate with your cohealer in a raid, even a short message when you enter the fight--something like "Hey, <name>, can you let me handle raidwide barriers since our barriers don't stack?"

Quite literally any problems that SCH/SGE could possibly encounter together could just be resolved through a little bit of player communication, and the benefits both jobs offer should drastically outweigh the entirely avoidable negatives.

And as others have put, SCH/SGE is an incredibly powerful duo. I've been progging savage as a Sage (I've gotten up to A3S at the moment), and I have to say, I probably feel the most comfortable with a SCH who's access to Expedient, equally prominent mitigation tools, and colossal barriers have been making healing feel a lot smoother than even AST. Not that AST is in any way lacking in its ability, especially with Macrocosmos that can just undo nasty raidwides, but with a SCH, party HP just doesn't drop like it does when I'm partnered with an AST or WHM.

[genbatzu]

Have you by chance thought to talk with your cohealer when pairing with a Sage? I won't say you haven't, but I feel like if you just communicate with your cohealer in a raid, even a short message when you enter the fight--something like "Hey, <name>, can you let me handle raidwide barriers since our barriers don't stack?"

Quite literally any problems that SCH/SGE could possibly encounter together could just be resolved through a little bit of player communication, and the benefits both jobs offer should drastically outweigh the entirely avoidable negatives.

And as others have put, SCH/SGE is an incredibly powerful duo. I've been progging savage as a Sage (I've gotten up to A3S at the moment), and I have to say, I probably feel the most comfortable with a SCH who's access to Expedient, equally prominent mitigation tools, and colossal barriers have been making healing feel a lot smoother than even AST. Not that AST is in any way lacking in its ability, especially with Macrocosmos that can just undo nasty raidwides, but with a SCH, party HP just doesn't drop like it does when I'm partnered with an AST or WHM.

yes. on my example you quoted (the phoinix one) where it happened the first time to me. After i applied my barrier and it got overwritten by the sage (start of fight), I immediately asked him to please not overwrite my barriers with E.D. he never replied in chat and kept overwriting my barriers, i asked him again but he continued overwriting every single time and never wrote a word in chat.

on the flipside, iirc it was last week, i had the exact opposite experience with a sage (4th circle, iirc). as I wrote "friendly reminder that E.D. overwrites scholar's galvanize shields" in the party chat on fight start, he replied with "ok wont use gcd shields, ty"

although I had mixed results and SCH/SGE is a strong combo, i still never join a PF where a SGE is already present and when i open one myself, I always exclude SGE and only search WHM/AST.

[Hysterior]

Agreed that the strongest shield should override the weaker one

I don't think you can just rely on healers "communicating" to make up for a strange design decision (We don't all have a static and/or use voice)