so apparently Sage dealing a raid wide Aoe to his group is working as intended

[genbatzu]

tl;dr:
Sage's Eukrasian Prognosis/Diagnosis can overwrite Scholar's buffed Galvanize shield, even if it would provide a 99% lower shield



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I opened 2 bug reports, one was moved to insufficient information (ok, makes sense, my bad https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...olars-Barriers)
and the second one was moved to "working as intended"
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...vanize-shields

The steps to reproduce this are really simple and everyone can ruin his co-healers life try it out:
1. Scholar uses "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics", granting the whole Group a boosted effect of "Galvanize"
2. Sage uses Eukrasian Prognosis
3. Group gets hit by a raid wide AoE from the Sage (lul), aka magicked barrier overwrites boosted Galvanize effect of the Scholar, resulting in a much smaller barrier.

The problem is that only stronger Scholar Shields can overwrite Sage Shields, while Sage can overwrite Scholar Shields with (much) weaker ones, which results in wasted cooldowns, indirect damage (or if timed poorly direct damage) to the whole party.

e.g.:
- 1 to 8 player(s) in your group eat some dmg and fall to 5k HP. the boss begins to cast a raid wide AoE dealing 10k HP.
(Players at 5k HP)
- Scholar begins casting his usual "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics" combo with maybe some additional heal boosting buffs, spreading a 7k HP shield to the whole group, enough to survive the incoming raid wide AoE
(Players at 12k HP)
- The Sage casts Eukrasian Prognosis, mostly unbuffed, overwriting the Galvanize Shield with a 2k HP shield. Effectively dealing a 5k raid wide AoE to his group.
(Players at 7k HP)
Boss finishes his raid wide AoE cast and deals 10k HP. everyone dies
(Players at -3k HP, aka ded)

I know this example is extreme and would rarely occur in real situations, and that in a single target case the scholar would cast buffed Adloquium on the player who made the mistake, which would then also heal him and give him another shield which cannot be overwritten (at least not from the E.Prognosis) and that E.P also heals a bit, but the example shows how a Sage can in 100% of situations where he is paired with a scholar and the scholar uses his go-to 90s CD AoE shield, deal a raid wide AoE to his own group. and this is working as intended.

Real Gameplay Example in the first comment as it's too long to include here apparently.

[genbatzu]

real gameplay example:
Pandaemonium 3rd Circle.

I (Scholar) get matched with a Sage. Before the Fight starts I cast my usual buffed combination of "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics".
Sage immediately casts E.Prognosis afterwards, reducing shields of everyone, requiring earlier and more heals, wasting more oGCDs (next to the 60s, 2x 90s and 120s oGCDs wasted already) and reducing dmg output of both healers.

Phoinix readys a raid wide AoE, I again cast my "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics" to shield the group. Sage again overcasts it by E.Prognosis.
I now wasted 4 oGCDs again and have to top up the group as instead of the shield eating the dmg, they got "HP-DMG" which needs to be healed (and the Sage dealt "Shield-DMG" to the group, by reducing the shield to a fraction)

This happened throughout the whole fight on every occasion.

[ty_taurus]

real gameplay example:
Pandaemonium 3rd Circle.

I (Scholar) get matched with a Sage. Before the Fight starts I cast my usual buffed combination of "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics".
Sage immediately casts E.Prognosis afterwards, reducing shields of everyone, requiring earlier and more heals, wasting more oGCDs (next to the 60s, 2x 90s and 120s oGCDs wasted already) and reducing dmg output of both healers.

Phoinix readys a raid wide AoE, I again cast my "Protraction" + "Fey Illumination" + "Recitation" + "Adloquium" + "Deployment Tactics" to shield the group. Sage again overcasts it by E.Prognosis.
I now wasted 4 oGCDs again and have to top up the group as instead of the shield eating the dmg, they got "HP-DMG" which needs to be healed (and the Sage dealt "Shield-DMG" to the group, by reducing the shield to a fraction)

This happened throughout the whole fight on every occasion.

Have you by chance thought to talk with your cohealer when pairing with a Sage? I won't say you haven't, but I feel like if you just communicate with your cohealer in a raid, even a short message when you enter the fight--something like "Hey, <name>, can you let me handle raidwide barriers since our barriers don't stack?"

Quite literally any problems that SCH/SGE could possibly encounter together could just be resolved through a little bit of player communication, and the benefits both jobs offer should drastically outweigh the entirely avoidable negatives.

And as others have put, SCH/SGE is an incredibly powerful duo. I've been progging savage as a Sage (I've gotten up to A3S at the moment), and I have to say, I probably feel the most comfortable with a SCH who's access to Expedient, equally prominent mitigation tools, and colossal barriers have been making healing feel a lot smoother than even AST. Not that AST is in any way lacking in its ability, especially with Macrocosmos that can just undo nasty raidwides, but with a SCH, party HP just doesn't drop like it does when I'm partnered with an AST or WHM.

[genbatzu]

Have you by chance thought to talk with your cohealer when pairing with a Sage? I won't say you haven't, but I feel like if you just communicate with your cohealer in a raid, even a short message when you enter the fight--something like "Hey, <name>, can you let me handle raidwide barriers since our barriers don't stack?"

Quite literally any problems that SCH/SGE could possibly encounter together could just be resolved through a little bit of player communication, and the benefits both jobs offer should drastically outweigh the entirely avoidable negatives.

And as others have put, SCH/SGE is an incredibly powerful duo. I've been progging savage as a Sage (I've gotten up to A3S at the moment), and I have to say, I probably feel the most comfortable with a SCH who's access to Expedient, equally prominent mitigation tools, and colossal barriers have been making healing feel a lot smoother than even AST. Not that AST is in any way lacking in its ability, especially with Macrocosmos that can just undo nasty raidwides, but with a SCH, party HP just doesn't drop like it does when I'm partnered with an AST or WHM.

yes. on my example you quoted (the phoinix one) where it happened the first time to me. After i applied my barrier and it got overwritten by the sage (start of fight), I immediately asked him to please not overwrite my barriers with E.D. he never replied in chat and kept overwriting my barriers, i asked him again but he continued overwriting every single time and never wrote a word in chat.

on the flipside, iirc it was last week, i had the exact opposite experience with a sage (4th circle, iirc). as I wrote "friendly reminder that E.D. overwrites scholar's galvanize shields" in the party chat on fight start, he replied with "ok wont use gcd shields, ty"

although I had mixed results and SCH/SGE is a strong combo, i still never join a PF where a SGE is already present and when i open one myself, I always exclude SGE and only search WHM/AST.

[EaMett]

yes. on my example you quoted (the phoinix one) where it happened the first time to me. After i applied my barrier and it got overwritten by the sage (start of fight), I immediately asked him to please not overwrite my barriers with E.D. he never replied in chat and kept overwriting my barriers, i asked him again but he continued overwriting every single time and never wrote a word in chat.

on the flipside, iirc it was last week, i had the exact opposite experience with a sage (4th circle, iirc). as I wrote "friendly reminder that E.D. overwrites scholar's galvanize shields" in the party chat on fight start, he replied with "ok wont use gcd shields, ty"

although I had mixed results and SCH/SGE is a strong combo, i still never join a PF where a SGE is already present and when i open one myself, I always exclude SGE and only search WHM/AST.

Another thing to remember as SGE is if you're going to E.Diagnosis during downtime for extra Addersting stacks. Don't apply them to the SCH or the MT/OT. As those are generally the most likely players to get deployed shields from. Just shield yourself, and dps.

[Packetdancer]

Another thing to remember as SGE is if you're going to E.Diagnosis during downtime for extra Addersting stacks. Don't apply them to the SCH or the MT/OT. As those are generally the most likely players to get deployed shields from. Just shield yourself, and dps.

If I am in a raid roulette or whatever as SGE and find myself paired with a SCH, I tend to find a tiny bit of communication helps.

Like, "Hey, SCH, do you mind if I pre-pull shield these three folks, so that I get a full set of Addersting off of the first raid-wide?" or "When the boss is untargetable before adds, I'm going to shield myself and the two ranged to refill Addersting if needed, just so you know; I'll leave the tanks for you to shield and deploy from if needed." Generally the SCH is like "Sure!"

And then I do what I said, and otherwise I focus on direct healing and mitigation or regen; though SGE is a "barrier" healer, we have a stupid amount of options other than just simple shields.

[Kabzy]

This is how it has always been, that's why you didn't see SCH/N.AST pairs in previous expansions. I can see why they wouldn't want to change this, as they ideally want to keep one barrier and one pure healer per party.

That being said, SGE/SCH is still very viable and content so far, perhaps with the exception of P3S/P4S, doesn't actually require GCD shielding. So you should never really be in that predicament. It probably is very annoying though, but it is what it is.

[genbatzu]

This is how it has always been, that's why you didn't see SCH/N.AST pairs in previous expansions. I can see why they wouldn't want to change this, as they ideally want to keep one barrier and one pure healer per party.

this explains my confusion about why it was labelled "works as intended", thanks, but with AST you could just use your other buff and not run nocturnal, soo it wasn't really an issue. on SCH+SGE you dont have that option

[Deceptus]

This is how it has always been, that's why you didn't see SCH/N.AST pairs in previous expansions. I can see why they wouldn't want to change this, as they ideally want to keep one barrier and one pure healer per party.

That being said, SGE/SCH is still very viable and content so far, perhaps with the exception of P3S/P4S, doesn't actually require GCD shielding. So you should never really be in that predicament. It probably is very annoying though, but it is what it is.

Just because that's how it's "always been" doesn't mean it's good design. . . That excuse is the height of white knightery.

[Kabzy]

Just because that's how it's "always been" doesn't mean it's good design. . . That excuse is the height of white knightery.

I'm not saying it is, I've slated the developers enough times for how terrible they are when it comes to healers. But in this scenario, I think having some repercussions to ignoring the pure healers is good.
Or at least I'd much rather they focus on the actual things about healers that could be improved, rather than something like this which isn't even much of an issue if you know how to play your job. But to each their own.