Ninja DPS Output(A possible Fix)

[Bureda]

Lemme guess - you haven't really ran savage as a melee yet, have you? Not a dis btw, just that would explain why you don't see a value in a regular, melee weapon skill vs a gap closer, as it doesn't come up nearly as much in non-optimized, casual content.

See, in a lot of the harder fights you have to be way more careful about your movement while still trying to maintain your uptime. You might have to execute your burst on the move, stay at max melee range in order to not get hit by a point-blank AoE that extends past the enemy hitbox or simply stay put in your assigned position in order to execute a mechanic which would wipe the group if you mess it up. In all of these situations a gap closer bringing you to the edge of the target's hitbox is a liability - that's the main reason people had an issue with the original iteration of Raijus ever since we've learnt how they work - and in those situations Fleeting being a regular melee attack becomes utility.

On the other hand, if you have to completely disengage for a time during your burst, Forked may be the better option as it can be executed at range and brings you back into melee instantly. Hence both skills offer different utility options and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

[Satarn]

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

Bud, I have given you a pretty clear explanation, with examples of various situations which I have ran into several times while doing content on ninja in this game, along with how the differences between the two skills apply to said situations. You're the one talking out of your behind about how something "feels" awkward.

[Kolsykol]

I personally still don't feel like the old Raiju were a problem ( yes I've done the two first Savage at least, I started last weekend and had irl issues + shitty groups getting in the way but I am moving on to the next two soon ).
Granted they were already changed when I started doing it but I don't think it should've been an issue rly but it's not my main issue rly with the changes.
With that said I don't necessarily mind making them two options either.
My issue is that we lost 3 Raijus in the process, I liked using 6 Raijus.

The main issue that needed to be solved imo was to make them not break on weapon skills.
Give us two stacks per Raiton back and make them not break on weapon skills.

This would actually add some extra depth to NIN too in that it would allow us to stock a charge for charging back to the boss when we know we'll have to disengage soon.

[Quyn]

Let me guess you like to talk and type without playing the game. Theorycrafting Andy over here liking the sound of his own typing.

You should really crawl back to the WoW forums with your asinine tone and attitude. WoW Andy thinks he knows anything about this game. What a joke.
Oh and speaking of theorycrafting : How many savage/ ultimate clears do you hold on Ninja ?

On topic:

I have the outrageous point of view that Nin would be a more enjoyable class without trick attack.
Its going against what Ninja has been since its inception, Im aware. However, in my opinion it would open up design space a bit, as Nin wouldnt have to cram
everything and grandmas rocking chair into that window, offering a more spread out, natural flow of combat.
Additionally, Square wouldnt have to design the DPS around trick.

Yes, it smells a bit like homogenization but perhaps Nin can differentiate itself in another manner. Im aware this is sacrilege and the lynching is coming for me now but hey, its just an opinion.

[Shurrikhan]

Virtually every job has damage windows into which to cram "anything and everything" and without TA that'd just turn into everyone else's 15 seconds buffs every other minute. Ninja will never not exploit damage windows to the best of its ability; every job is obliged to.

If you want TA to be a less invasive factor, that's just a matter of reducing NIN's ability to bank for and thereby exploit any and all raid damage windows. Such would be more helped by having a greater portion of CDs that would rarely sync to multipliers of 60, reverting Kassatsu to not give a free (non-charge-consuming) cast, or even by taking out our second charge of Ninjutsu than by removing TA.

[Satarn]

If you want TA to be a less invasive factor, that's just a matter of reducing NIN's ability to bank for and thereby exploit any and all raid damage windows. Such would be more helped by having a greater portion of CDs that would rarely sync to multipliers of 60, reverting Kassatsu to not give a free (non-charge-consuming) cast, or even by taking out our second charge of Ninjutsu than by removing TA.

This tbh, but it will not happen. SE has been deliberately aligning things more and more and killing any drifting possible since 5.0. I personally hate this direction, because it makes things more boring, but it is the direction we're going in.

5.0 NIN was quite the outlier, still retaining a very varied rotation and some (accidentally) big-brain optimization with Meisui, but got completely streamlined in the 5.1 rework. Had to hammer in that last remaining nail I guess.

[Shurrikhan]

This tbh, but it will not happen. SE has been deliberately aligning things more and more and killing any drifting possible since 5.0. I personally hate this direction, because it makes things more boring, but it is the direction we're going in.

5.0 NIN was quite the outlier, still retaining a very varied rotation and some (accidentally) big-brain optimization with Meisui, but got completely streamlined in the 5.1 rework. Had to hammer in that last remaining nail I guess.

Tbf, outside of boss jumps, the only big drift concern is, itself, TA, but so long as Ninjutsu continues to trigger its cooldown upon starting into the mudra sequence, instead of on release (as per the earlier design), and Suiton has a long prep period, drift remains basically a non-issue.

With both Kassatsu not giving a free charge and Ninjutsu having only one Charge, you'd have one fewer NJ cast per minute, of course, but the larger effect is simply that rather than the majority of Ninjutsu casts falling into TA, Ninjutsu casts under TA become basically proportionate to time spent under TA (well, 1 in 3 non-free casts, rather than 2 in 3).

There's also just the further matter of Ninjutsu's apparent potency -- as in, what the player perceives, more so than what they amount to, as portion of total damage, over time. When a given tool itself is overwhelming strong compared to typical actions, they overshadow those, diminishing the excitement that'd come from synergies (even such modest ones as manipulating the timing of this or that to get in one more strong GCD / one fewer weak GCD within a damage window). When Fuma Shuriken was an (admittedly still slightly undertuned) option for purposes of noticeably saving uptime (and especially when other timers like Dancing Blade, Mutilate, and Shadow Fang still played a part in anchoring play and changing the relative costs of uptime), Ninjutsu didn't so greatly push the normal combos out of interest. Equally notable, it also provided a soft manipulator against drift.

All in all, it's a shame how many "QoL" changes have managed to "solve" a given issue only by reducing agency and thereby creating new issues or constraints of their own. Reduced ping penalty on mudras, for instance, needed only the HW Empyreal Arrow treatment -- properly queueable weaponskills that would incur but not respect the global cooldown as triggered by other skills, with animation locks significantly shorter than their GCD periods. That'd have still allowed for the same protection against ping-based upside cost while moving all players nearer to the way NIN flowed for low-ping players before, rather than forcing all NIN to play like a 250-ping player over the course of their mudras and would not have deemphasized weaponskills nor pushed out other rotational elements.