Genuine Scholar feedback

[rewd]

Lilybell isn’t the same as a self-stacking shield that you can carry anywhere in the arena and also has 50% more downtime. Panhaima is the strongest cooldown because it’s doing more than just heavy throughput and also doesn’t go away if the healer that used it dies. Seraph is the worst of the bunch in throughput but in terms of QoL I’d take Seraph over Lilybell.

You said "strongest heal" and Panhaima objectively isn't that.

You can keep moving the goalposts and set arbitrary conditions if you will, but I'll leave you have all the fun with it.

[Grimoire-M]

You said "strongest heal" and Panhaima objectively isn't that.

You can keep moving the goalposts and set arbitrary conditions if you will, but I'll leave you have all the fun with it.

It’s the strongest heal because of how it functions not purely because of its throughput. Raw singular throughput hasn’t mattered since Astrologian got Star. Anything that heals more than it functions specifically in that niche of successive damage intake or regeneration. However, neither Star nor Lilybell nor Seraph function exactly the way Panhaima specifically does. The combination of it healing more than Star does in total on top of how it goes about it that is the exact reason it should be nerfed. And I don’t think it needs to be by a lot. Range is one of the few things that makes heals ‘bad’ in this game. Panhaima is functionally infinite range after application. Very few heals of any sort have that trait. It’s the only one that does while beating Star if it doesn’t get popped at all. Twice over if it does the entire way. I think that warrants a nerf to its throughput.

Name a situation where you don’t want it or can’t use it that doesn’t specifically involve trying to avoid self-stacking it. It’s the strongest heal because it’s powerful on two axis, versatility and throughput. That’s why it needs a nerf.

[rewd]

It’s the strongest heal because of how it functions not purely because of its throughput. Raw singular throughput hasn’t mattered since Astrologian got Star. Anything that heals more than it functions specifically in that niche of successive damage intake or regeneration. However, neither Star nor Lilybell nor Seraph function exactly the way Panhaima specifically does. The combination of it healing more than Star does in total on top of how it goes about it that is the exact reason it should be nerfed. And I don’t think it needs to be by a lot. Range is one of the few things that makes heals ‘bad’ in this game. Panhaima is functionally infinite range after application. Very few heals of any sort have that trait. It’s the only one that does while beating Star if it doesn’t get popped at all. Twice over if it does the entire way. I think that warrants a nerf to its throughput.

Name a situation where you don’t want it or can’t use it that doesn’t specifically involve trying to avoid self-stacking it. It’s the strongest heal because it’s powerful on two axis, versatility and throughput. That’s why it needs a nerf.

You are just saying random stuff now and contradicting yourself.

First you say Panhaima is the "strongest heal". In English, this means that it has the highest potency. Panhaima doesn't have that.
Then you say "strongest cooldown", which is more appropriate but also debatable. Asylum heals more than Collective Unconscious, so it's the strongest heal of the two, but whether it is the better cooldown is up for debate.

Once Liturgy of the Bell is mentioned, you start setting arbritary conditions so that Panhaima can fit your definition of OP.

Panhaima is a strong skill (it's a level 80 skill, why shouldn't it be strong?) but it is definitely not an OP skill that needs a nerf. The vast majority of the time you are using it in a suboptimal way as a mediocre 200p AoE shield that comes with a 500p burst heal. Pretty nice, definitely not OP. It's a buff, so once you apply it the party members' positions don't matter. Yet, it is still a buff that you need to apply, and said application has a 15y radius which means that you definitely can miss people.

To compare it with Liturgy of the Bell - which was only mentioned because you wrongly talked about "strongest heal": Liturgy is at its best a 2000p heal, as its worst a 1000p heal. You can place it anywhere you want and it heals in a 20y radius, which means you will virtually hit everyone every time. If you think that Panhaima needs a nerf because it's versatile and powerful, Liturgy needs a nerf too for the same reasons.

There is no reason not to use Panhaima, as you are always getting something out of it because of the way the skill is designed. This is true for many skills, including Liturgy of the Bell.

Nothing you said makes people go "Mhm, yes, Panhaima definitely needs a nerf".

[rewd]

If we had a hypothetical talent system where you picked between these abilities, I can't ever see a world where the optimal play would be to choose Soil and Excog over Kerachole/Taurochole.

Don't get me wrong, Soil is incredibly strong. But all the benefits on a 15y radius that no one has to stand in is simply better.

I can understand Kerachole and Soil, but I don't know why you keep comparing Taurochole and Excog (because they are different enough) and most importantly why you think Taurochole is not only superior but pretty much always better.

[Liam_Harper]

and most importantly why you think Taurochole is not only superior but pretty much always better.

Not always better, but overall. I'm not stating that as fact either but it's my impression and I found it interesting to open discussion on.

I compare Tauro because it's the 45s single target oGCD that costs 1 resource. Excog has +100 potency, which is maybe 2k+ health worth, but Tauro's 15 sec of mitigation will soak more than that just in boss autos. 15 sec is a nice duration. But I'll admit it's not a massive plus, you could argue for either.

Soil's initial tick is a very fair point I missed. Still 15y is just nutty and random players seem to hate standing in ground heals. I'd almost always want Kera in my kit if I had the choice.

It's not that I think SCH heals are "bad" at all. They're really strong. But I'd wonder if SCH deserves slightly better oGCD's than it has in exchange for the restrictions its kit has. That was my main point, not a Tauro vs Excog argument.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If we had a hypothetical talent system where you picked between these abilities, I can't ever see a world where the optimal play would be to choose Soil and Excog over Kerachole/Taurochole.

Don't get me wrong, Soil is incredibly strong. But all the benefits on a 15y radius that no one has to stand in is simply better.

Soil 100p stronger & has another benefit that allows people who somehow missed the first application tick for whatever reason to step into the dome to receive the remaining buff. Additional minus point if people hate ground targeting button, I guess. In Kerachole’s case if you miss, you miss it for good. I agree with you that 15y is delicious though.

Excog & Tauro isn’t really comparable imho, however similarly created they are.

Excogitation can be used to delete upcoming damage intake while letting its cooldown rolling after initial application. In addition to this, it synergies with Recitation; it can be forced to critical. These two qualities are not present on Taurochole. The only way we can waste an Excogitation is to slap it onto player that constantly on 100% HP.

Taurochole works in parallel. But to not waste the upfront 700p heal, the target has to not be at 100% health. It’s easier to waste a Taurochole than to waste an Excogitation. The only time I can think of when Tauro is better than Excog is during massive wall pulls where tanks are generally hemorrhaging. The damage mitigated by Tauro would’ve definitely surpassed even the critical healing Excog.

[_forgotten]

As a scholar main in 4.x and 6.x, please do not remove energy drain. This skill adds a niche gameplay aspect that none of the other healers have. Being a healer who focuses on healing efficiency rather than brainless healing usage is a nice change of pace.

[Liam_Harper]

As a scholar main in 4.x and 6.x, please do not remove energy drain. This skill adds a niche gameplay aspect that none of the other healers have. Being a healer who focuses on healing efficiency rather than brainless healing usage is a nice change of pace.

Genuine question on this.

It's almost universally agreed here that WHM lilies should be dps neutral, that we should be encouraged to use them to heal. It's extremely rare I've seen anyone say they prefer the 85 potency loss.

However, Energy Drain is functionally the same. By existing it means, similar to Lilies each Aether Heal is a similar potency loss. You could argue that the potency loss on Lilies is also a niche gameplay aspect that makes you think about when to use them, but most people just think it feels bad to use them.

So what makes Energy Drain different? Because I've seen a large number of SCH mains who cling to this ability and love it, while over on WHM we're begging for heal tax to be thrown out the window. Just curious.

[Semirhage]

Genuine question on this.

It's almost universally agreed here that WHM lilies should be dps neutral, that we should be encouraged to use them to heal. It's extremely rare I've seen anyone say they prefer the 85 potency loss.

However, Energy Drain is functionally the same. By existing it means, similar to Lilies each Aether Heal is a similar potency loss. You could argue that the potency loss on Lilies is also a niche gameplay aspect that makes you think about when to use them, but most people just think it feels bad to use them.

So what makes Energy Drain different? Because I've seen a large number of SCH mains who cling to this ability and love it, while over on WHM we're begging for heal tax to be thrown out the window. Just curious.

If I had to hazard a guess, it's because the cost doesn't "feel" as present unless you're aware of it. Opportunity costs are a hard beast for the people to wrangle; if you use Indom your first lizard brain reaction is "yay I healed someone". If you use a lily, you think "yay I healed someone". But when Misery comes up, now you're face-to-face with the result of using three lilies and it feels like a deflated balloon when you do cursory math on it. Scholar's gauge doesn't build up to a big damage hit, so there isn't a specific standout moment where you're put directly in front of that opportunity cost.

[AmiableApkallu]

But when Misery comes up, now you're face-to-face with the result of using three lilies and it feels like a deflated balloon when you do cursory math on it.

Only if you're concerned about your personal DPS to the exclusion of all else. As a healer, you spend resources healing because you expect that the party's overall DPS will be better for it in the long run. The alternative is letting people tank the floor, which is a far greater loss to the party than the measly 85 potency you personally "lost" because you didn't cast four Glares instead.