[ENDWALKER MSQ SPOILERS] Timeline weirdness

[Kordarion]

You mean something that happens every day everywhere? Don't even get me started on holidays. People who adopt bunnies for Easter, black cats for Halloween, or puppies for Christmas, only to be surrendered to shelters after they've worn out their cuteness.

It seriously is infuriating how anyone thinks that modern humanity has a leg to stand on, like, how oblivious to the cruelties of the world are you?

And you're assuming that because we know people do those things in the real world that means we are okay with that? I have a problem with that reckless disregard for life in both cases, as would many others I can only presume.

It is seriously infuriating that you think that because some modern humans are monsters that all modern humans are monsters.

[Lurina]

And you're assuming that because we know people do those things in the real world that means we are okay with that? I have a problem with that reckless disregard for life in both cases, as would many others I can only presume.

It is seriously infuriating that you think that because some modern humans are monsters that all modern humans are monsters.

In every country on Earth, it's pretty normal to cull predators or invasive species when they start causing problems to the wider biosphere. The US alone culls tens of thousands of wolves a year. Even greater numbers of predatory fish and merely disruptive herbivores, like deer, are killed for no purpose other than management of the environment and maintaining a sustainable population of all species.

It's not that the Ancients doing it is morally uncomplicated, just that it's weird to act like it makes them alien or evil - I assume you don't think of the RSPB workers who do this stuff as 'monsters'. If I might be a little presumptuous, I doubt this is something you think about much in your day-to-day life at all. They probably don't either.

[Kordarion]

In every country on Earth, it's pretty normal to cull predators or invasive species when they start causing problems to the wider biosphere. The US alone culls tens of thousands of wolves a year. Even greater numbers of predatory fish and merely disruptive herbivores, like deer, are killed for no purpose other than management of the environment and maintaining a sustainable population of all species.

It's not that the Ancients doing it is morally uncomplicated, just that it's weird to act like it makes them alien or evil - I assume you don't think of the RSPB workers who do this stuff as 'monsters'. If I might be a little presumptuous, I doubt this is something you think about much in your day-to-day life at all. They probably don't either.

The moral difference, in my opinion at least, is that for the most part the predatory animals we cull in our world came into existence separate from our actions. In Elpis they make these creatures, playing god in every aspect of their lives, not to mention that in real life we cull a species and not render it extinct like in Elpis. However I do agree that the people who cull those populations in our world aren't monsters, that comment was more directed at use of:

People who adopt bunnies for Easter, black cats for Halloween, or puppies for Christmas, only to be surrendered to shelters after they've worn out their cuteness.

as an example of why modern humanity can't make comments on the morality of designing species at a whim and when it doesn't work out erasing their mistakes while ignoring the fact they are living beings and then starting the process over until you, the ancients, get what you want.

[Lurina]

In Elpis they make these creatures, playing god in every aspect of their lives, not to mention that in real life we cull a species and not render it extinct like in Elpis.

We create new breeds of dogs, cats, and livestock and then render them extinct because they didn't 'come out right' all the time. Recently we've even started to do it with genetic engineering. On that note, entire new races of mice and other lab animals are regularly created exclusively for the purpose of researching experimental treatments for diseases and then are summarily disposed of.

I think that the Ancients were a little dubious in their treatment of other life, but only in the way that baseline humanity is dubious. The distinction you're drawing where we hold back in playing with their lives to suit our purposes doesn't meaningfully exist beyond the fact that their methods are magical and fantastic while ours are scientific and aesthetically banal.

[Theodric]

Thankfully MMO's are designed to appeal to a broad variety of tastes, so I think we can take comfort in the simple fact that there's plenty of room for many characters and factions to receive their fair share of time in the spotlight moving forward. Even if such comes solely in the form of the occasional cameo.

Though there's a very vocal minority around these parts who bring up their distaste for the Ancients at every possible turn, there's quite a lot of people who are quite fond of them. I imagine that number has only grown as a result of Endwalker.

[Rulakir]

Someone posted this on Reddit a couple weeks ago: Results of FF14 Japanese fandom character popularity poll post-Endwalker

The Ancients seem quite popular in Japan as well, especially Emet.

Emet-Selch 4621 votes(17.2%)
Hythlodaeus 3513 votes (13.1%)
Venat / Hydaelyn 3136 votes(11.7%)
G'raha 1546 (5.8%)
Meteion 1295 (4.8%)
Alisae 1197 (4.5%)
Hermes 961 (3.6%)
Estinien 930 (3.5%)
Alphinaud 893 (3.3%)
Urianger 869 (3.2%)
Zenos 866 (3.2%)

[Rulakir]

Lurina's beating me to the punch. I listed examples based on what the person I responded to said. I mean, if we really want to go down the rabbit hole of the atrocities humans commit against non-human creatures on a daily basis, actions that unless you're a hardcore vegan I guarantee you financially support, we can do that. However, my point was those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Kordarion]

We do play god too much in our own world don't we, I guess I went and got a bit too emotional in the way I was responding to what was being said and didn't quite articulate myself properly. I see a difference in creating a new breed of a species and developing a whole new species entirely, maybe I shouldn't, and I do see your point about making and then getting rid of need breeds of animals, it is wrong. I guess part of my problem is the sort of technological difference we see between our societies and the ancients. Obviously they used magic and we don't but they come across as a sort of future society that is supposed to be beyond that sort of stuff while we are still in a period of working out our relationship to the world around us in a healthy way whilst retaining our advancements. It just feels that from what we know they should be beyond that and aren't, I prefer my futuristic advanced societies to be better, not simply appearing better but just being the same.

I guess I don't like the "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" idea because it limits you to only calling out your own society and not calling out both societies for doing the wrong thing.

[Lurina]

We do play god too much in our own world don't we, I guess I went and got a bit too emotional in the way I was responding to what was being said and didn't quite articulate myself properly. I see a difference in creating a new breed of a species and developing a whole new species entirely, maybe I shouldn't, and I do see your point about making and then getting rid of need breeds of animals, it is wrong. I guess part of my problem is the sort of technological difference we see between our societies and the ancients. Obviously they used magic and we don't but they come across as a sort of future society that is supposed to be beyond that sort of stuff while we are still in a period of working out our relationship to the world around us in a healthy way whilst retaining our advancements. It just feels that from what we know they should be beyond that and aren't, I prefer my futuristic advanced societies to be better, not simply appearing better but just being the same.

I guess I don't like the "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" idea because it limits you to only calling out your own society and not calling out both societies for doing the wrong thing.

I don't think there's anything wrong for judging the Ancients for their treatment of other living beings, so long as you're also willing to extend those arguments to contemporary humanity. For me, what puts me off in these conversations is the dissonant hypocrisy of hearing people talk about how the Ancients were perverse and deserved to die for that stuff, while drawing a line between themselves as us. To bring it around to the sacrifices, we slaughter an unthinkable amount of relatively intelligent beings just to keep the wheels of our civilization turning. We're crushing entire biospheres for our convenience. The Anthropocene has driven more species into extinction than any other event in 60 million years.

If they deserved to get sundered, we deserve to get sundered.

[Kordarion]

I don't think there's anything wrong for judging the Ancients for their treatment of other living beings, so long as you're also willing to extend those arguments to contemporary humanity. For me, what puts me off in these conversations is the dissonant hypocrisy of hearing people talk about how the Ancients were perverse and deserved to die for that stuff, while drawing a line between themselves as us.

If they deserved to get sundered, we deserve to get sundered.

I think my original point in this conversation in this thread was that I would simply rather spend my time in the "present" rather than the ancient world if given a choice. And then that lead to me commenting on how I don't like either what the ancients did in Elpis or the concept of "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". I don't think they should have been sundered for what they were doing in Elpis either, although it does play into why I don't think they would have been able to permanently defeat Meteion but that is another can of worms I'd rather not open right now.