[ENDWALKER MSQ SPOILERS] Timeline weirdness

[Iscah]

His timeline is wholly separate from ours, so how did it work back there?

The simplest answer is: it isn't wholly separate. It only diverged from our own timeline when G'raha altered the events of "his timeline's" past to the point that those events couldn't come to pass any more. A new branch of time forms to hold this new future, and now is of equal importance as the original.

Prior to Shadowbringers there is one timeline. Afterwards there are two. The timeline is a Y shape.

When we travel to Elpis, we move from our "branch" of the split timeline to the "trunk" that is shared by both halves of the split. Thus our actions there affect both timelines.

Unfortunately there's no satisfactory answer as to how the time loop formed, but it did, and things have just always happened that way. All the parts interconnect neatly.


Also, just in case you're working under what seems to be a common misconception: the First is not a "timeline" separate to the Source, it is a "shard" and still aetherically connected to the Source. A copy of all the shards exists in each half of the split timeline, with the other timeline ruined because of the First's rejoining.

[Jandor]

Also, just in case you're working under what seems to be a common misconception: the First is not a "timeline" separate to the Source, it is a "shard" and still aetherically connected to the Source. A copy of all the shards exists in each half of the split timeline, with the other timeline ruined because of the First's rejoining.

It's not a misconception, it's a theory. There is confirmation that the 8th calamity world still exists, somehow, but nothing beyond that.

[Kordarion]

It's not a misconception, it's a theory. There is confirmation that the 8th calamity world still exists, somehow, but nothing beyond that.

They mean the first as in the world we visit in Shadowbringers, some people think that is a different timeline to the source, where eorzea, othard ilsabard and others are located.

[Lium]

The simplest answer is: it isn't wholly separate. It only diverged from our own timeline when G'raha altered the events of "his timeline's" past to the point that those events couldn't come to pass any more. A new branch of time forms to hold this new future, and now is of equal importance as the original.

Prior to Shadowbringers there is one timeline. Afterwards there are two. The timeline is a Y shape.

When we travel to Elpis, we move from our "branch" of the split timeline to the "trunk" that is shared by both halves of the split. Thus our actions there affect both timelines.

Unfortunately there's no satisfactory answer as to how the time loop formed, but it did, and things have just always happened that way. All the parts interconnect neatly.


Also, just in case you're working under what seems to be a common misconception: the First is not a "timeline" separate to the Source, it is a "shard" and still aetherically connected to the Source. A copy of all the shards exists in each half of the split timeline, with the other timeline ruined because of the First's rejoining.

As an aside, I really like your posts. Very informative and thoughtful. You and that other person who posts with a lalafell avatar and is very professorial. He/she has a wealth of knowledge concerning FFXIV lore. They usually start the new patch threads for everyone to share their experiences.

On-topic. This is one of the many reasons I dislike time travel shenanigans in my fantasy and sci-fi. Number one, it's a copout. If you write something so apocalyptic and egregious that it seems there is no way forward, then you should have to make your characters live with it in some way, and find a way to move forward. Heartbreak and all. Doesn't mean they can't still win or solve the problem. But it came at a great cost that cannot be undone.

Having said that, what Iscah said is likely the best explanation. Both Timeline G and Timeline S (using the OP's designation) had the same "trunk" and only diverged when G'raha made his leap to the First. To add to this, I think the other poster in this thread was also correct when they said Timeline G (G'raha's timeline) autocorrected itself. Meaning it's likely that in the 8UC, the soul of Azem is reborn and is sent back to Elpis by a different means.

Basically, the WoL going back in time to meet Venat happens across ALL timelines. Just at different times and possibly by different means. But the result is always the same. Because it always happened. No matter what.

[Iscah]

Having said that, what Iscah said is likely the best explanation. Both Timeline G and Timeline S (using the OP's designation) had the same "trunk" and only diverged when G'raha made his leap to the First. To add to this, I think the other poster in this thread was also correct when they said Timeline G (G'raha's timeline) autocorrected itself. Meaning it's likely that in the 8UC, the soul of Azem is reborn and is sent back to Elpis by a different means.

The thing here is, there isn't any need for the other timeline's WoL to go back to Elpis directly. As already covered, our trip takes place in the trunk of both timelines, so there's no need (or really any opportunity) for a second person to go through the same experience. We set Venat on the path to become Hydaelyn, and now she exists in the other half of the split timeline as well as ours.

In our timeline, she can't tell us about the time loop or the Meteia until we've been through the time loop, thus her crypticness. By the time she can tell us everything, we already know it.

But speculatively, in the other timeline, she could see that the cycle of events has gone awry. If we told her in Elpis about averting the Eighth Calamity – and we must have, given how much it ties into talking about Emet's future that he's horrified to hear about – then she should be able to recognise that when the Eighth Calamity does actually happen, that must mean she's in the bad timeline and the time loop will not be fulfilled here. Therefore she can safely tell the whole story straight away to anyone she can still contact. A new WoL in this timeline would not need to make the journey back to Elpis to learn what we did.

As an aside, I really like your posts. Very informative and thoughtful. You and that other person who posts with a lalafell avatar and is very professorial. He/she has a wealth of knowledge concerning FFXIV lore. They usually start the new patch threads for everyone to share their experiences.

Thankyou!

[AlysanneVrannai]

Also, just in case you're working under what seems to be a common misconception: the First is not a "timeline" separate to the Source, it is a "shard" and still aetherically connected to the Source. A copy of all the shards exists in each half of the split timeline, with the other timeline ruined because of the First's rejoining.

Hey, thanks for the response. To clarify some things I'll try to outline how I've interpreted the way time travel works in two concise points.

1. Time Travel is rigid; In our timeline G'raha was always going to summon us to the First, and we were always going to use the Crystal Tower on the First to arrive at Elpis because we had already been at Elpis to lay the seeds for Hydaelyn to guide us to those very moments. Time Loop and all that.

2. There is "chronology" (word used VERY loosely) in non-bootstrap time travel. I.e, for the time loop to have ever existed it NEEDS the events of the 8UC to have happened, otherwise the Time Loop could not have "started" (I know there is no start or end, again, used very loosely).

The notion of the "Elpis Trunk" and 8UC being a "branch" of our timeline confuses me greatly, and does not add up to me. The implication that different "branches" can influence the creation of their own branch seems... Intensely weird to me, but as I type it out it is in a way similar to a time loop? The conditionals here are a bit too much for me to grasp at the moment.

If the branch notion is correct, does it go like this? Elpis->8UC->Our Timeline->Elpis? but it also goes Elpis->Our Timeline->Elpis? Simultaneously? time travel, man...

[Iscah]

The notion of the "Elpis Trunk" and 8UC being a "branch" of our timeline confuses me greatly, and does not add up to me. The implication that different "branches" can influence the creation of their own branch seems... Intensely weird to me, but as I type it out it is in a way similar to a time loop? The conditionals here are a bit too much for me to grasp at the moment.

If the branch notion is correct, does it go like this? Elpis->8UC->Our Timeline->Elpis? but it also goes Elpis->Our Timeline->Elpis? Simultaneously? time travel, man...

As I see it, there isn't a thing that comes first. Time just somehow exists, as a whole, before you have personally lived it – even as your own actions and choices seem to create the shape of that timeline. From the point of view of a future observer, the thing you're about to do already happened.

(This is not to say that we don't have free will over our actions, just that our decision has already been recorded, from another perspective.)

If there's any sense of what comes first, I think it has to be a simple chronological past-to-future: Elpis happens, then the splitting point between the two branches of time, then you travel back from one of them to complete the loop that is already in motion.

But it's all interlocking pieces that just work together without a clear starting point.

[Veloran]

It doesn't make sense because it's a plot hole. Currently any potential explanations offered lack validity because they're all based on information that is never presented to the player, because time rules are very vague and ill-defined.

[Shookbeast]

Maybe the Sundering isn’t WOL/Azem dependent? If Azem is staying out of the Venat/Zodiark fight - then maybe someone else is the person who actually instigates the Sundering - or works with Venat to bring it about?

My guess would be “Mr Hard Decision” himself, Urianger. I suspect he (or someone like him) is going to fill out the Cylva role - but from our group this time. (Writers love echoing previous stories). Urianger might travel to another world/time/timeline to go cause trouble over there. I could see him easily taking up the mantle of this “most grievous matter” to go help Venat cause the Sundering.

There’s still time for something like this to happen in both of your timelines - both our prime one, and the “G” one.

[AlysanneVrannai]

Maybe the Sundering isn’t WOL/Azem dependent? If Azem is staying out of the Venat/Zodiark fight - then maybe someone else is the person who actually instigates the Sundering - or works with Venat to bring it about?

My guess would be “Mr Hard Decision” himself, Urianger. I suspect he (or someone like him) is going to fill out the Cylva role - but from our group this time. (Writers love echoing previous stories). Urianger might travel to another world/time/timeline to go cause trouble over there. I could see him easily taking up the mantle of this “most grievous matter” to go help Venat cause the Sundering.

There’s still time for something like this to happen in both of your timelines - both our prime one, and the “G” one.

You might be right, I could see a future plot point unveiling the connection here. They have some crumbs already relating to weird movements by Azem during the final days.