[ENDWALKER MSQ SPOILERS] Timeline weirdness

[AlysanneVrannai]

Ill try to keep it pretty short.

Seeing as our "reality" can't exist without G'raha sending himself and the Crystal Tower into our Timeline on the First, how did the world sunder in G'rahas original timeline?

In our timeline, Venat learns about the Final Days through us, and prepares accordingly, leading to her faction creating Hydaelyn. The only reason we are on Elpis to tell Venat this is due to the Crystal Tower and G'raha existing on the First after their time and world jump, and Elidibus being trapped in the tower allowing us access through his memories.

With the original 8th era timeline though, there shouldnt be a WoL timejump to Elpis, so how in the world does Venat become Hydaelyn in that timeline? It seems pretty weird that she coincidentally makes the exact same decisions, choosing the exact same champion (she only chose us in our timeline because she already knew we were her champion since she has MET US) so that the timeline is the exact same up until the end of Stormblood, where the G'raha timeline and ours diverge.

Am I overthinking this? Yes, I am. But it is still really interesting to me, and I wonder if the devs actually thought about this or if Im just missing something that already explains away this hole.

[Cilia]

Time travel is really [kupo]ing complicated.

Since we exist as a consequence of the Elpis time loop, we can't observe any potential timeline where it does not happen, but that doesn't mean those timelines don't exist. In one timeline "Azem" is reborn in the 8th Astral Era and fulfills the promise. In another the 9th. In another the 2nd. In another not at all. And so on and so forth. We just can't observe or interact with them, since the "us" of this reality exists as a consequence of history as we know it.

Elpis is a time loop. From our perspective it has to happen, because we exist as a consequence of it; we know this by Argos' friendliness toward us (or lack thereof) depending on "when" we are. If the Elpis time loop as we know it doesn't happen, we get a Doctor Strange Supreme situation where the timeline autocorrects itself from our perspective so the events of history leading up to our trip to Elpis take place. How those autocorrections take place... who knows. Push too far and you'll cause a time crash or branching timeline, the former of which would be very bad and the latter of which we don't know we could return from.

As far as our ability to perceive time goes, the Elpis loop is a fixed point in time. I'm expecting Pandaemonium to be similar.

[AlysanneVrannai]

Time travel is really [kupo]ing complicated.

Since we exist as a consequence of the Elpis time loop, we can't observe any potential timeline where it does not happen, but that doesn't mean those timelines don't exist. In one timeline "Azem" is reborn in the 8th Astral Era and fulfills the promise. In another the 9th. In another the 2nd. In another not at all. And so on and so forth. We just can't observe or interact with them, since the "us" of this reality exists as a consequence of history as we know it.

Elpis is a time loop. From our perspective it has to happen, because we exist as a consequence of it; we know this by Argos' friendliness toward us (or lack thereof) depending on "when" we are. If the Elpis time loop as we know it doesn't happen, we get a Doctor Strange Supreme situation where the timeline autocorrects itself from our perspective so the events of history leading up to our trip to Elpis take place. How those autocorrections take place... who knows. Push too far and you'll cause a time crash or branching timeline, the former of which would be very bad and the latter of which we don't know we could return from.

As far as our ability to perceive time goes, the Elpis loop is a fixed point in time. I'm expecting Pandaemonium to be similar.

My point is that the Elpis time loop is conditional to us being able to get there with the Crystal tower on the First. Which we shouldnt be able to do without G'rahas initial time jump. His timeline is wholly separate from ours, so how did it work back there? It could just be "coincidentally the same results but with different actions leading to it" but its an unsatisfying answer.

[RyuDragnier]

My point is that the Elpis time loop is conditional to us being able to get there with the Crystal tower on the First. Which we shouldnt be able to do without G'rahas initial time jump. His timeline is wholly separate from ours, so how did it work back there? It could just be "coincidentally the same results but with different actions leading to it" but its an unsatisfying answer.

Sadly, time flow in this game is a VERY confusing thing, and I believe only Alexander knows how everything works. Though somebody had a theory that may explain it...the Exarch's time jump wasn't just through time, but also space/dimension.

If you assume the timeline follows the rule of "You went back in time because you were supposed to in order to cause these events to happen", then we have a lot of stable time loops, nothing contradicting itself. With the exception of the Exarch, every other time travel method has followed this. Summoners of Alex go back and time and give birth to the tribe that eventually leads to his summoning, us going back in time to save ourselves from the laser attack in Alex raids, us traveling to Elpis which sets in motion the events that lead to the Final Days and the Sundering, etc. The Exarch...doesn't match that pattern, and only makes sense if it's a dimension hop, meaning something outside of the normal rules of time travel. Due to how the time flows, him being here is a paradox...which is accepted by the timeline adjusting to him helping cause the events that lead to us going back in time to Elpis.

Again, really confusing as hell overall, and only Alex could tell us how time really works.

[Veloran]

It doesn't make sense because it's a plot hole. Currently any potential explanations offered lack validity because they're all based on information that is never presented to the player, because time rules are very vague and ill-defined.

[AlysanneVrannai]

snippy snip

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

[Shookbeast]

Maybe the Sundering isn’t WOL/Azem dependent? If Azem is staying out of the Venat/Zodiark fight - then maybe someone else is the person who actually instigates the Sundering - or works with Venat to bring it about?

My guess would be “Mr Hard Decision” himself, Urianger. I suspect he (or someone like him) is going to fill out the Cylva role - but from our group this time. (Writers love echoing previous stories). Urianger might travel to another world/time/timeline to go cause trouble over there. I could see him easily taking up the mantle of this “most grievous matter” to go help Venat cause the Sundering.

There’s still time for something like this to happen in both of your timelines - both our prime one, and the “G” one.

[Kordarion]

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

I have a theory that up until the Warriors of Darkness return to the first in Heavensward that they are still the same timeline and only diverge afterwards. Our current timeline splits from the 8UC timeline the moment that G'raha arrives in the first post-flood of light as that is the first point in time where the events of the two timelines differ. Therefore if both timelines are whole pre-Heavensward patches then they would both share the same set of events in Elpis and the Sundering, the events we set in motion by time-traveling to Elpis therefore creating a convoluted situation where the 8UC was fated to happen so that the sundering could happen.

Its confusing I know, but that's what happens when you introduce the ability to change the past/future like they did in Shadowbringers.

[RyuDragnier]

I feel like we are talking past eachother. I have acknowledged that there are different kinds of time travel, thats not the point of confusion to me.

Let me establish two names for simplicity:

"Timeline G" is the original timeline G'raha came from, where the Black Rose killed most of the population on the Source.

"Timeline S" is the timeline that we experience from ARR to Endwalker and onwards.

How does Timeline G even end up at the point it is, with a version of us having died to Black Rose, when the Final Days shouldnt have ended in a sundering since we were NOT summoned to the First by a G'raha from a different timeline, thus Elidibus and the Crystal Tower couldnt intertwine to send the Warrior of Light to Elpis to inform Hydaelyn about the coming crisis, so that her faction could prepare? "Coincidental Similarities" is an answer of course, although underwhelming.

That I'm really unsure of, unless Alexander set it up. I know, Alexander is a convenient excuse to explain things...but sadly he's also the ONLY being in creation (that we know so far) that actually knows how the hell time works.

[AlysanneVrannai]

Maybe the Sundering isn’t WOL/Azem dependent? If Azem is staying out of the Venat/Zodiark fight - then maybe someone else is the person who actually instigates the Sundering - or works with Venat to bring it about?

My guess would be “Mr Hard Decision” himself, Urianger. I suspect he (or someone like him) is going to fill out the Cylva role - but from our group this time. (Writers love echoing previous stories). Urianger might travel to another world/time/timeline to go cause trouble over there. I could see him easily taking up the mantle of this “most grievous matter” to go help Venat cause the Sundering.

There’s still time for something like this to happen in both of your timelines - both our prime one, and the “G” one.

You might be right, I could see a future plot point unveiling the connection here. They have some crumbs already relating to weird movements by Azem during the final days.