The dev team did a fantastic job on the MNK rework. I love it.

[Mikey_R]

I would say this if while you're open minded.

1. For years I have dealt with the 6 positionals for mediocre potency increase....fine. I'll do them but I think they are needless, but that's the way the job plays. I deal with them.

2. For years I have been told I needed to play some other job and leave monk to the "elite few that can master it".

3. Current iteration everything has flipped. Now I don't have to deal with 6 postionals but only 2! And I still get the benefit of potency increase without moving around which just felt needless.
And also those that told me to play something else now hate the new monk...yet I can now enjoy it. While also NUMEROUS others now enjoy it, and the crazy deeps it brings.

4. Six weeks of unraveling muscle memory, new opener, new loop, everything. For me this was great and I was ok with all of it. Is it a little slow during the lull' between blitzs...sure. Do I care...not in the slightest.

5. But NOW those that say the positionals never hurt anything in the first place still continue to do them out of bordem. Saying there is nothing wrong with 6 positionals and to put them back in. Yet you still do them.....why? Since it is quite literally POINTLESS to do them now. You say you are bored....so you fill the time with movement while you wait for the next Blitz.

6. I say they were pointless then and only served little to small amounts of gratification. And now they are gone were they serve NO point now in terms of potency....yet you still do them? THAT is the question I would like answered also. Are you really THAT bored? Honestly speaking.

1. looking at positionals in a vacuum, sure, I can see how they can bee seen as needless and pointless, however, it is when you combine it with other mechanics from a boss that makes them enjoyable to some people. Doing the boss mechanics and hitting the positionals felt great and the potency boost was your reward, even if it wasn't that big.

2. Have you? I do not remember the narrative that Monk players were part of 'an elite', it was most likely a case of, if you do not like positionals, play something else, which is the same as, if you don't like cast times, don't play a mage, if you don't want to worry about defensive rotations, don't play a tank etc.

3. Saying 'I now enjoy the new Monk' is the same mentality you condemned in your previous point. Don't like it? play something else. Don't like positionals? play something else. Same argument, but because you are on the side that benefits you the most, you then say it is a valid argument to make. As for the last point, if people only play it for the DPS, are they really playing it because they enjoy it, or, if another DPS came along that done more DPS, would they switch over to that? The majority of the Monk playerbase didn't care about the damage (as long as it was balanced, but that is the same for every job) and cared more about the playstyle it adopted.

4. That lul is the main issue I personally have with Monk and for me personally, I feel positionals is an easy way to make the lul more engaging, they wouldn't even have to change anything, just add the positionals back and spread the potency from Snap Punch and Demolish to the other GCDs.

5. I do them because it is so ingrained into me, when I get to the lul in the rotations, it is just automatic, I do not have to think about them. If mechanics happen, and I have to switch on again, I do not worry about hitting them at all (except Snap Punch and Demolish) as I know they aren't needed. However, the fact people do do them out of boredom does highlight the fact that that section of the rotation is lacking.

6. With the lul phases, yes. During the burst, I am engaged and I could see an argument for removing the positionals from the Masterful Blitz windows, however, it should not be at the cost of the rest of the rotation. This is why I have suggested the Perfect Balance change to negate positionals. This way, you have positionals in the downtime, but when it gets hectic, you have a period you do not have to worry about them. I have yet to hear anyone's opinion on this idea so I am unsure how people from both sides view this.

I also want to comment on this statement that you made in post #109:

"Greased Lightning isn't coming back, 6 Positionals aren't coming back, stances aren't coming back"

I agree with Greased Lightning becoming a trait and the removal of stances. GL was starting to hold the job back in that state as every expansion it was just more GL maintenance tools, which is not exciting in the slightest and stances were essentially, what gives the most damage, use that. However, positionals were something that I feel did not need to go.

[Navnav]

2. Have you? I do not remember the narrative that Monk players were part of 'an elite', it was most likely a case of, if you do not like positionals, play something else, which is the same as, if you don't like cast times, don't play a mage, if you don't want to worry about defensive rotations, don't play a tank etc.

Point 2 you made is the problem I have with players like Ssbunny. There are players, quite a few in fact that truly do believe that doing positionals takes 1337 skill, like as if you are 360 no scoping every gcd. If you do not like the positionals, never mind that you can hit them every GCD no problem, they dont care about that, to them if you don't like them, then you are rubbish at monk and should play something else.

This is where my distain for them came even further. Because too many monks keep saying players are rubbish for not liking them, then they start getting all rude and fruity about it. So you dish that same energy back.
Not with you though, you seem rather level-headed. I like that, you put good arguments, even if I don't see it the same, I can respect your opinion due to how you word it out.

[IruruCece]

2. Have you? I do not remember the narrative that Monk players were part of 'an elite', it was most likely a case of, if you do not like positionals, play something else, which is the same as, if you don't like cast times, don't play a mage, if you don't want to worry about defensive rotations, don't play a tank etc.

You have to remember that the people who truly believe old monk players were part of some self styled "elite" group are also the same people who think the thing that allegedly makes them "elite" (hitting positionals regularly) are also the same people who think that said positionals are also irrelevant/boring/unrewarding/too easy. Ultimately, "elites" in this case aren't actually special beyond their willingness to engage with the game's mechanics and their enjoyment of it, but it's easier for players like Sqwall and Navnav to discount other people's opinions by otherising them first. When they get it thrown back in their faces, they play victim. This has been going on for a while.

People like Navnav aren't being rude over discussions of the job or the game's mechanics because one day, the "elites" were rude to him first. He does what he does because he's a troll. You're trying to hold a discussion with a dude who claimed that Dancers shouldn't be doing damage, and that healers should "only heal", among other things.

[Mikey_R]

Point 2 you made is the problem I have with players like Ssbunny. There are players, quite a few in fact that truly do believe that doing positionals takes 1337 skill, like as if you are 360 no scoping every gcd. If you do not like the positionals, never mind that you can hit them every GCD no problem, they dont care about that, to them if you don't like them, then you are rubbish at monk and should play something else.

This is where my distain for them came even further. Because too many monks keep saying players are rubbish for not liking them, then they start getting all rude and fruity about it. So you dish that same energy back.
Not with you though, you seem rather level-headed. I like that, you put good arguments, even if I don't see it the same, I can respect your opinion due to how you word it out.

Even though I agree with Ssunny on many points, I will agree with you that labelling a whole group of players as the reason Monk's positionals were removed and using that to attack that same group of people is uncalled for.

While at first with the changes, I might have been a bit hot headed (I honestly do not remember) I do want to try and understand what the other side sees. I have a feeling that liking alot of positionals does come down to what you enjoy. I like to think of it as a puzzle, how can I do mechanics and still hit the positionals, logic puzzles are things I enjoy, so this is a way I can engage that part of my brain whilst playing this game. I, obviously, cannot make assumptions on anyone else to prove or disprove this point, or to see if there is any sort of correlation there at all, however, I hope a few people could humour me with their own opinions. Do you like logic puzzles and do you enjoy position heavy jobs. The more I think on this, the more interested I am as to how close this potential correlation could be.

[Sqwall]

@mickey

All great points of view.

#2 and #3 question. Yes, I have been told to just go play something else numerous times and leave MNK alone as I only pull a grey or green parse someone once said. I don't really care, and what my DPS is or that I'm not in the top percentile of damage. That's not the point, and I never wanted MNK to be the new reaper. It just happened that way. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I can find the posts....but I don't care...it's in the past. I take everything sunny2008 posts with "a grain of salt", and I'm not posting here for the benefit of those that disagree with me. I'm here for the DEV's to see, nothing more.

I have been told that I even embody all that is "ruining" gaming and trying to make everything to casual. Examples: I want an easy mode for Dark Souls, or can't complete hard games like seikiro. Which I have completed, dark souls I, II, III, Bloodborne, Demon's Souls, and actually have seikro just haven't sat down to actually play it. I'm actually taking time off FFXIV to play Elden Ring. My skin is pretty thick and I don't have to much to worry about with "mean people in the FFXIV forums" Off topic...i'll continue.

With the comments towards me that I'm "white knighting" for the dev team...on the contrary. I still hold them to the same standard as I do with any job in the game. I just have more to say about MNK, and I think it's warranted as MNK has been in contention for some years now. If anything I expect excellence out of the DEV's as I want them to avoid backsliding as some other MMO's have done, and CONSTANTLY remind them of the hardship of coming out of FFXIV 1.0 means. That iteration was the antithesis of what a game should be.

#4 point: I'm optimistic. I try to look on the bright side for the most part and avoid being a hyperbolic doomsayer. Those that saw the media tour and what was to come for MNK judged it BEFORE it even came out, and SE was still working on it obviously. Flocked to the forums with doom and gloom saying MNK is dead. Terrible. Awful. Boring.

Now it's one of the best DPS classes...maybe top 5 played (which is due to each point in that comment). While also leaving me hopeful for the future of things to come. You condemn it for being boring, I applaud for being less arbitrary. You say needs more oGCD, I see potential for additions to oGCD's in the future. I agree Blitz needs work...but not to have the dev team rip it up and start again when they probably just fought through hell to give us THIS.

Thank you for the honest response, and civil discourse. We don't have to agree on everything, but I think we can agree we both want the best for MNK.

I suppose to analogize: Rome wasn't built in a day, and it took even longer to paint everything. But it still stands today, even if it's not the same.

[Navnav]

People like Navnav aren't being rude over discussions of the job or the game's mechanics because one day, the "elites" were rude to him first. He does what he does because he's a troll. You're trying to hold a discussion with a dude who claimed that Dancers shouldn't be doing damage, and that healers should "only heal", among other things.

Jeez, cut me some slack would you. The dancer thing is true. I joked about that one though, which would be obvious to anyone but you...

As for the healing one, I do believe healers SHOULD be forced to GCD heal more. I wont hide that at all. However that is down to encounter design in general and how the damage intake is far too scripted. Not that they shouldn't do damage, but having to gcd heal should be something that is considered normal. Hot take for someone like you i know, but that is what I think. I still play healers and enjoy them, I can accept the game does it differently here, but that doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.

How about you just do yourself a favour and go play in the sun for a while, I can imagine you need a little vitamin D after standing in Ssbunny's shadow for so long.

[Mikey_R]

#4 point: I'm optimistic. I try to look on the bright side for the most part and avoid being a hyperbolic doomsayer. Those that saw the media tour and what was to come for MNK judged it BEFORE it even came out, and SE was still working on it obviously. Flocked to the forums with doom and gloom saying MNK is dead. Terrible. Awful. Boring.

Now it's one of the best DPS classes...maybe top 5 played (which is due to each point in that comment). While also leaving me hopeful for the future of things to come. You condemn it for being boring, I applaud for being less arbitrary. You say needs more oGCD, I see potential for additions to oGCD's in the future. I agree Blitz needs work...but not to have the dev team rip it up and start again when they probably just fought through hell to give us THIS.

Thank you for the honest response, and civil discourse. We don't have to agree on everything, but I think we can agree we both want the best for MNK.

I suppose to analogize: Rome wasn't built in a day, and it took even longer to paint everything. But it still stands today, even if it's not the same.

From the media tour, I was sceptical, about losing positionals on Raptor form skills, however, I was willing to give it a go, to then take away the ones from Opo-opo before we even tried it I would say was a step too far. I would have stayed with Raptor form positionals gone and judge the feedback from there, changing if needed. While I cannot say for certain, I believe this could have been enough to satisfy me and I might not have noticed the lackluster downtime between bursts. I hope we can agree that this is the route they should have taken, rather than going straight for everything as it is a very big change for Monks.

I think alot of this comes from the fact we are 3 expansions in and Monk really hasn't grown much, with the majority of it being the Blitzes. SB and ShB were both disappointing in evolving Monk's playstyle and to have EW add something new, that was good, but at the detriment of taking away something else. Other jobs did not have this (maybe Ninja, but I'm not a Ninja expert and I don't really play it) and they felt like their gameplay evolved over the expansions. This is what has always frustrated me the most, seeing other jobs get good stuff every expansion and Monk is just left behind. After 2 lackluster expansions and a mixed bag, I was hoping that we wouldn't have to wait til the next one just to see improvements when that is all I have been doing.

As for the healing one, I do believe healers SHOULD be forced to GCD heal more. I wont hide that at all. However that is down to encounter design in general and how the damage intake is far too scripted. Not that they shouldn't do damage, but having to gcd heal should be something that is considered normal. Hot take for someone like you i know, but that is what I think. I still play healers and enjoy them, I can accept the game does it differently here, but that doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.

As a quick aside, I do fully agree with this. I am not a healer main myself, doing dungeons and the occasional relevant trial when the game happens to put me in there from roulettes, however, if healers have an issue with only the 1/2 button combo, you can fix that by adjusting the amount of healing they are required to do. One of these issues is that oGCD healing is too strong and the fact you can heal whole fights on just oGCD healing, even in the Savage tier (not necessarily week 1) shows that it is not balanced at all. Again, I am not a healer main, but that is just my view on it.

[Sqwall]

You have to remember that the people who truly believe old monk players were part of some self styled "elite" group are also the same people who think the thing that allegedly makes them "elite" (hitting positionals regularly) are also the same people who think that said positionals are also irrelevant/boring/unrewarding/too easy. Ultimately, "elites" in this case aren't actually special beyond their willingness to engage with the game's mechanics and their enjoyment of it, but it's easier for players like Sqwall and Navnav to discount other people's opinions by otherising them first. When they get it thrown back in their faces, they play victim. This has been going on for a while.

People like Navnav aren't being rude over discussions of the job or the game's mechanics because one day, the "elites" were rude to him first. He does what he does because he's a troll. You're trying to hold a discussion with a dude who claimed that Dancers shouldn't be doing damage, and that healers should "only heal", among other things.

Those that said they are easy and simple to complete are also the ones shouting they were never hard to do. They even do them out of boredom. While the other side (mainly me) have said they are arbitrary for the sake of just being arbitrary. It was a fun idea in 2.0....but it aged poorly over the years. At times I wonder what it would have been like if we never had 6 positionals, and what systems monk could have developed over the years if we weren't shackled to those designs for so long.

As far as being rude to others, I try to treat everyone with respect. No matter their opinions...because their just opinions. Mine suck just as much as yours do, and that's what makes them an opinion. Context goes along way in the forums, and I believe the way people type gives weight to how they want those opinions to sound. Sunny2008 just can't catch a break. I have tried...and tried....and tried with him/her...but it's come to just putting them on the ignore list after just having sunny2008 just straight up taking it WAY to personal and throwing everything they wanted to at me. I took the high road...and placed them on the ignore list...and haven't "quoted or interacted" with them since. I just can't with that kind of person...I can't. That door goes both ways to...would I feel burnt up because someone blocked me or ignored me....HECK NO. We just go our separate ways and that's the end o fit. Dev team will decide what to do with everything.

[Sqwall]

From the media tour, I was sceptical, about losing positionals on Raptor form skills, however, I was willing to give it a go, to then take away the ones from Opo-opo before we even tried it I would say was a step too far. I would have stayed with Raptor form positionals gone and judge the feedback from there, changing if needed. While I cannot say for certain, I believe this could have been enough to satisfy me and I might not have noticed the lackluster downtime between bursts. I hope we can agree that this is the route they should have taken, rather than going straight for everything as it is a very big change for Monks.

I think alot of this comes from the fact we are 3 expansions in and Monk really hasn't grown much, with the majority of it being the Blitzes. SB and ShB were both disappointing in evolving Monk's playstyle and to have EW add something new, that was good, but at the detriment of taking away something else. Other jobs did not have this (maybe Ninja, but I'm not a Ninja expert and I don't really play it) and they felt like their gameplay evolved over the expansions. This is what has always frustrated me the most, seeing other jobs get good stuff every expansion and Monk is just left behind. After 2 lackluster expansions and a mixed bag, I was hoping that we wouldn't have to wait til the next one just to see improvements when that is all I have been doing.

I would be lying if I didn't think it was enough for the removal of positionals after the media tour. I wanted what we have now honestly. I would say I was 60/40 on the fence about the positionals reduced to 4, but I was willing to give it a try and find out for myself. When I saw that they only ones that were left were snap and demolish, I'll admit....I was happy. Even pleased that we still kept something, it seemed "fair" when I heard about it.

I also knew that soapbox was going to get quite a bit of wear marks after the patch notes dropped. And it did. I was one of them...but I was excited. Didn't think much about those that were going to lose something...I even took a break from the forums as I did feel somewhat guilty as being the biggest proponent for saying "they gott'a go." Now that I have had time with MNK and the job playstyle I understand that the DEV's were right. The job would have been WAY to busy for everyone....and would FURTHER push it into obscurity given the direction of mechanics.

Hopefully respect is warranted here, and no offense in any of these conversations. I think sometimes people just get to passionate. Myself included.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Jsnip

Do you guys even remember how it started? About all the bs crusades to remove positionals?

NOONE has been an asshole in first instance. You guys just have been liers. You searched for arguments to get ride of positionals just to cater your own, not to improve the game. You´re just lazy to play them. You didn´t like GL, you didn´t like positionals, heck you didn´t like all what made MNK a MNK, but "you loved the aestethics".
MNK has never been a class for you guys, NEVER! Gameplay-wise it was so far away from what you guys wanted and ppl told you that. Hell, Mikey has told NavNav about 20 times now (atleast 5 times in this thread), that MNK has been the only choice to play if you want a positional-heavy job. Either no answer came or just "Positionals suck, lol."

You guys just have been selfish and you still are. Checking out your stuff and going through all your claims, you don´t even want to main MNK in the first instance and you guys aren´t that great on its execution. You do even claim controversial stuff for whatever reason. You guys had never any intention to look for a compromise or to play another melee which suits your gameplay-choice. Not even NavNav who loves DRG and its positionals, nono... better rework MNK.

So what?? Do you guys really believe you earn some respect after claiming dozens of bs, never agree to disagree and in the end you went into the first EW positional-thread to be like "Hahahahahha just fck you MNK Vets, go play something else now!" ?!

And no, you guys don´t want the best for MNK or the game, you want the best for yourself. More than enough MNK mains lost a class they loved and the game lost another unique option to play. Stop lieing to yourself srsly. Not any MNK main went into another class thread being like "I hate all about the class, please add positionals on it!", NOONE. And serious ppl can accept, when a class isn´t something for them, so they go find another one. And FF14 has more than enough classes, but nono... Ppl who never touched MNK all the way needs to be catered, nonsense, just nonsense...