What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Vyrerus]

With the imagery used regarding ancients (paradise lost, hermetica trimegestos, light, rebellion etc), was venat intended to fit into the lucifer role or is that just an unfortunate coincidence?

It's mostly incidental, because Square has always referenced religions and mythologies throughout the Final Fantasy series. By setting up conflicts between what they reference, they incidentally recreate some of the old myths' conflicts. Gnostic ones, Zoroastrian ones, Juedo-Christian ones, Islamic ones, and the list goes on and on.

The idea has been floated in several places that Hydaelyn is similar to:

- Satan / Lucifer / Azazil
- The Demiurge / Sophia
- God / Yahweh
- Morgoth / Melkor

There's also a prevailing idea from a bunch of Youtube "philosophers" that Square Enix RPGs almost always reference Gnosticism and The Demiurge, and that what the player fights as god at the end is actually just their take on The Demiurge.

These assumptions almost always ignore all context surrounding each character, and their literal actions often being at odds with what any of those mythical figures would do.

For instance, part of Lucifer/Azazil's story is that he was an angel made from a different substance than the other angels. Sometimes he is the first angel. Other times he is the last. As Azazil (islam) he was made from, "toxic flames." His fall was caused by his refusal to bow to God's new creation, Mankind. A similarity he does share with Hydaelyn is the proclamation of his own divinity, and having to share the lower world with man.

A lot of players just assumed Hydaelyn to basically be the setting's true God, even after it was revealed she was man made in Shadowbringers.

The Demiurge / Sophia comparisons have come into the light recently since Endwalker analysis is still going strong. She doesn't really fit for Sophia at all, though, since Hydaelyn is not a First Principle, and she also doesn't create much of anything other than, I guess, The Twelve. And The Twelve don't really fit in as the Demiurge at all, so it's kinda ehhh? But Hydaelyn as The Demiurge sort of fits better, since it also creates, but its creations are material rather than divine, and it creates life and stewards for it, called Archons. The Archons keep the material realm from ascending back to their divine roots. Now, often, The Demiurge takes the name of different Satan analogues when people tried to mix Gnosticism with Christianity or other religious ideas, but that's not really a 1 for 1 either.

Of course, just because there isn't a 1 for 1 match up, doesn't mean it's not what was intended.

We might not want to think of the developers as Gnostics, Satanists, Christians, or any other flavor of religion, but they very well might be any of those things. Ever since the early 2000s really got Atheist and Agnostic ideas flowing really broadly into society, there have been pop-ups of things like Satanists that do it more to rabble rouse, but there are true believers out there, that believe their own doctrine to be just, because they based it off of actual good morality they were taught or learned from others, merely applying the name / deific figure they want to it, as to stand contrary to spiritual belief they themselves hate. And these old lost religions and spiritual beliefs get dredged up into it, too, because they seem more fantastical and like a hidden truth that makes folks who read about it feel special, I guess.

Like, it could be, that the devs at Square are Gnostics that have a positive view of Sophia and The Demiurge, and they wanted to proliferate that in spirit, if not in doctrine, by putting a positive spin on the idea by writing Hydaelyn the way they did.

Didn't think you'd read anything wackier than an RPG plot today, did ya? But this is the kind of stuff that is an RPG setting's inspiration. Its bread and butter... or perhaps its Communion wafer.

[Swordsman]

My problem with the time travel was that it was so under used as a plot point that it mostly only served as fan service.

Without a doubt fan service had a huge part to do with it. Emet Selch is one of the franchise's most popular characters, and it doesn't surprise me at all that SE sought a way to give him more screen time.

[Vyrerus]

Was listening to Locus and other earlier music from XIV earlier. Shiva theme, Tsukuyomi theme, Sephirot theme etc.

It's amazing how the lyrics relate to what became the overarching story, but it also made me realize we got robbed of them presenting a lot of parallels directly between Venat/Ysayle/Yotsuyu.

Ysayle does have some similarities. Betrayed her civilization/society for the wrong reasons after getting a vision. Adapts and changes her weapon by changing its shape. Mantles Shiva through a ritual given to her by the Zodiark faction of the Ascians (Hydaelyn is a stolen ritual, Shiva is a gifted one).

Yotsuyu has some similarities too. Mantles a primal through a ritual. Primal is related to the moon, which apparently Hydaelyn reshaped at a minimum. Has a story involving amnesia.

They could have written more parallels in for Venat between her and these predecessor characters, as seems to have been the intent at one time or another. We had a sort of nothingburger that many thought would be some form of foreshadowing when Ryne wished to mantle Shiva so earnestly in Eden, her Minfilia bestowed Hydaelyn powers causing her to feel super in tune with Ysayle's story.

If they'd taken the route many think they should have taken and had Venat's memory wiped by Kairos, they could have looped in our experience with Tsuyu vs. Yotsuyu, and played it for more pity points on top of having The Sundering be an unwittingly done action rather than an intentional one.

But as it stands now, there's just the passing similarities and no real tie ins. Another example of how Endwalker was fumbled.

As for the other songs and how they could relate... Well, when you look at Sephirot's theme's lyrics it sounds almost like an Ascian talking about Hydaelyn. When you listen to Locus, it almost sounds like Alexander had knowledge of the actual, unnatural state of The Source.

There was so much potential for looping back in those old stories and threads, but we didn't get any of that. I hope some day they break from their formula and take their time to cook. The ingredients are all there, but they're just trying to make Menu Item #5 instead of the five course meal we're expecting.

[MoofiaBossVal]

I remember laughing out loud in the voice chat when "Kairos" happened.

I had a similar feeling. When the heroes had the bad guy dead to rights and he whipped out the time machine from nowhere, I sighed and my engagement fell. There wasn't realism anymore. The writers were going to bend over backwards to keep the story going whether it made sense or not. It reminded me of that scene towards the end of the first season of Code Geass when the rebels and the empire have reached an amicable solution, but then the writers whip out an inane contrivance to ruin the peace and keep the story going for the sake of it. It becomes hard to care whatever is going on anymore since it doesn't matter.

[kyyninen_kirahvi]

The whole Elpis episode boils down to here's Hermes and Meteion, justifying Venat's actions to herself and Emet (+ Hythlo) fan service. That whole thing could have really been an echo flashback with no down sides. Sure, pandemonium would have been written in a different palce (or just wholly in Sharlayan). I admit I really like that "has your journey been good"-scene, but even that would have worked before or after fighting her. That scene didn't really answer the question but did it need to, really?

btw, I'm not really taking a stance on the whole did Venat do the right thing debate. I just want to point out that Venat already had all the reasons to do what she did because she met the wol in the past. She knew there was at least one plan that works.

[Vyrerus]

I had a similar feeling. When the heroes had the bad guy dead to rights and he whipped out the time machine from nowhere, I sighed and my engagement fell. There wasn't realism anymore. The writers were going to bend over backwards to keep the story going whether it made sense or not. It reminded me of that scene towards the end of the first season of Code Geass when the rebels and the empire have reached an amicable solution, but then the writers whip out an inane contrivance to ruin the peace and keep the story going for the sake of it. It becomes hard to care whatever is going on anymore since it doesn't matter.

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

[Dorito_Burrito]

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

But he made the damn thing. Is it really out of the realm of possibility that he'd have that level of control over it, or did Ancient magicks only just become overpowered at that moment?

[Dikatis]

It is passing strange that Kairos just happened to be at the very top of the research station, or that its use could just have it pop out at a moment's notice. Almost no information on it or how it works, either, other than the direct exposition about it nuking memories from people or an area. Plot Contrivance Ultimate, most assuredly.

Oh no. The people with the power to CREATE ANYTHING OUT OF THIN AIR can create things out of thin air.

[Absurdity]

I love how the "counter" argument does nothing to actually counter how contrived it's use was.

[Dikatis]

I love how the "counter" argument does nothing to actually counter how contrived it's use was.

Vyrerus' point is the idea that it was "contrived" for Hermes to have Kairos handy at the top of Ktisis Hyperboreia to wipe people's memories. We countered by pointing out how Hermes is a master mage who invented Kairos and has extremely fine control of creation magicks, meaning that it's not contrived at all for him to have access to it. Implying that it was "contrived" for Hermes for being able to use his already established powers to perform an action he was previously established to be capable of given his attempted rehabiltiation of the proto-hoarhounds is ludicrous and grasping at straws.

It's the literal opposite of it being contrived.