What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Carin-Eri]

It slightly came up before and i couldn't find a lore entry so can you help me?

Are we the first people in space? (At least except Endsinger or other creatures) I mean we are the first ones in a space ship or not?

No. Heimdall's Last Sight shows us that the Allagans achieved spaceflight at least by the Third Astral Era. They sent a Heimdall-class 'ship' into space at around that time to monitor Dalamud - said ship crashed (and remains where it crashed) following an unsuccessful attempt at preventing Dalamud's activation.

[Xirean]

Odd that I can't edit on mobile. :/

There's also the Mandervillian race that travels the stars inside host bodies if you count that as a "ship". We know they did this before the Endsinger as well so they probably predate Meteion all together.

[BRVV]

Thank you Xirean and Carin-Eri. I meant from our planet or at least our post-allegan society. Thanks for the detailed responses

[Turtledeluxe]

No, not quite – you did, right here:

No, I didn't. Read it again. I said they were similar and it likely required a significant number of people. Stop distorting.

She already has a method, namely her traveller’s ward

Honestly, it's a video game and it's really not worth it. You can think what you want. The warrior of light had a general conversation, we don't know what they did or didn't mention.

The key problem with your argument is the “uncontrollable” bit.

Nope. There's no problem. Since, to your point, a significant majority of people supported Zodiark, that means they're open to tempering. As Emet says "it was only natural".

I’m not sure where you’re pulling this from, but the “new races” thing is wrong.

I was unsure why they elected to use that word and I"m not sure what they are implying there, it's not really the point.

we’re relying on primary sources

The problem with this is, a. It's a 10 year old game with myriad people writing and things are not always consistent and b. The lore not rigid and standardized in every case (as with TT) so people like you use it to make delcarative claims, which you do a lot, instead of making it clear you aren't referring to any kind of source. The issue isn't that you dislike Venat or feel she could've changed the future, it's that when it comes down to very critical details yours is an opinion like any other. You also have excuses for everything that counters your view-- "Well Venat had this and the Ancients did this and blah bha" I'm am not interested in conjecture, it keeps sending us on tangents.

[Turtledeluxe]

All I am asking is for the Scions to hold her to the same standards they have held other characters engaging in similar actions to, sometimes very loudly

When I say morality pageant content, I mean this. It's not that serious, it's just a shorthand label for what appears to be this desire for an "I hate you" Venat option. We differ strongly on this because as I've said before....the Hydaelyn trial is very tricky given that they're dealing with this very heavy subject matter and information that has come to light yet we're dealing with this primal that had technically saved and helped us for however longer ARR has been ongoing...I think it would create a bit of dissonance, especially given that other NPCs in the game seem to operate on the idea she had no choice (which I agree with them on and it has nothing to do with wanted to defend Venat, it's because it what makes sense to me). There's nothing and no one in the game representing your take (I agree with you on this) which is why I'm unsure if the theory parts of what you are saying are actually meaningful. Also I still haven't seen you address or explain the time convergence Venat calls out, perhaps because it contradicts what you consider rigid timeline lore and introduces a new idea which is that the timelines fused at a particular point in time strictly for the story purpose of granting people memories of the Elpis visist, basically. Even in the Venat trial she says "Ah, so you journeyed to Elpis" so I genuinely cannot reconcile the idea it's "welp closed book, the elpis time loop is a part of Eorzea's real history". I'd also note more generally, that Venat coming up with a good solution or making less controlling decisions only makes her not flawed (which is boring) and makes Endwalker's themes and ideas less resonant. I don't think EW is trying to paint a picture that life is perfect, everything is fair, everyone makes the best decisions, everyone has the best intentions. It's about the total opposite for me, actually.

Regardless, I simply brought this up to counter your insistence that the WoL can’t change the timeline because of what Elidibus said.

Well, you haven't changed my mind. There was a fate destined to happen and that makes sense, because changing the events could destroy the future. Unless the Elpis visit either is or became an alternate timeline, which is what I think happened.

the Venat we’re actually told about

Venat explains her motivations in the Hydaelyn trial. You're doubling down on how problematic it is by adding it the agency element via a timeloop theory when it's still problematic on its own. She justifies it because she saw no other solution both in terms of Zodiark and in terms of dealing with Meteion. Yes, this is controlling but Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically the gods of this world and it's a war between them. I can see how this bothers you because you're a player and you can't pick sides or makes suggestions but, meh. We defeat her, and we don't kill Meteion as some sort of dedication to her (she's never mentioned again actually) but to demonstrate that even after the problems created in Elpis mankind learned to walk on their own.

I'm not lashing out, I just don't like straw men arguments (like saying I've claimed all critics of EW are haters, when I was specifically talking about people who parrot the OP take about Venat not lifting a finger) nor am I fond of sourcing that doesn't truly set narrative boundaries. In truth XIV does not have many rigid narrative boundaries because they update things on a whim and leave ambiguous elements (such as time travel). What they've left ambiguous here means it's hard to make a definitive claim on the sequence of events. When I say one version is more frustrating I mean it's frustrating to you-- as you are clearly frustrated with Endwalker.

I also think part of what you're detecting is that I get the vibe you're trying to weave together all of these sources over the years and say "See, writers, what you're doing makes no sense" when I just think they are aware it doesn't make a ton of sense and as a result your take seems reductive and frankly, a little egotistical. They actively write new quests etc to address certain things and in that, still sometimes contradict previous story. Imo what makes this hard is the passing of time and the myriad hands on the project. The story isn't the only thing in the game like this.

Final point I've posted in the topic for 10 pages, many of you have posted in it for well over a year. I'm not trying to be insulting but as you point out, I'm already getting a bit exhausted of it. There's no way I would debate this for an extended period because the core elements of it boil down to how you read lines and how you theorize. I have no interest in continuing to link reddit post, youtube videos etc. I am not here to push people toward my view but just express my view. Most of the people who are the core base of the game are projecting when it comes to this and enjoy silencing others / cutting off thinking they do not like, whether it's a topic about story, job design, pvp, class balance, etc. If I didn't post what I posted, the topic would still be people making inappropriately declarative statements wantonly.

[BRVV]

If your "arguments" boil down to:
- "You are just mad because EW wasn't how YOU wanted it"
- "You just want to be different!"
- "You just hate EW!!!11"
- "It's successfull so it's beyond criticism!!!"
- "Expecting it to make sense is just stupid"

Then please spare us the nonsense and just don't post.

[Turtledeluxe]

If your "arguments" boil down to:
- "You are just mad because EW wasn't how YOU wanted it"
- "You just want to be different!"
- "You just hate EW!!!11"
- "It's successfull so it's beyond criticism!!!"
- "Expecting it to make sense is just stupid"

Then please spare us the nonsense and just don't post.

Good thing that isn't what my arguments boil down to. Have a seat.

How long are you going to continue pretending my thoughts on the story are incomprehensible/invalid and my only concern is deflecting criticism from Endwalker? The forum projection is off the charts. "I hate it so please stop posting!!!". Anyone can read all of my posts. I'm not concerned with cringe forum takes "so what you're saying boils down to this please repeat yourself until I am satisfied (or your daily limit is reached)". I do not need to defend myself and you are welcome to think whatever you want about Endwalker, including single timeline loop theories that make Venat seem illogical and genocidal. Your signature is hilarious because your perception absolutely drives your behavior, laughable really. I'm having a great time on the forum.

[Turtledeluxe]

I mean see you here in 6 months when you're still correlating people's views on FFXIV with "excusing genocide" while simultaneously claiming you are not pushing weird, personal moral agendas over a video game. The lack of self awareness is incredible. I must have really a nerve. I don't think everyone is wrong, I just don't agree with everything I read. I've never been kicked out of anywhere and I have had normal conversations in this thread, just not any with you. And I will have a great time because I actually think it's interesting to hear other perspectives. I think the Elpis visit is an alternate timeline, it's not that big of a deal. And yes I think part of why it is alternate is because we already existed there. It's a shame you are ignoring because I'd be really curious to know why SHB/post SHB hinted this so heavily and why you think they didn't show Azem before the arc ended.

Also I didn't launch any ad hominem at you-- at least nothing on the scale of questioning your mental health and imply you have a personality disorder. I said your signature gives an indicator of your perception and it does-- what do you mean when is the last time you enjoyed the forums? The only time I don't enjoy them is when I meet people like you, who interpret differing opinions as censorship. Censorship is asking people not to say anything and not post, I hope that helps. I don't even regard terms like "reductive" as insulting, maybe that's where a disconnect exists between us. You perceive it as a aggression when it's not. I just feel like expecting bulletproof consistency across a 10 year long MMORPG with the insane level of quests XIV has (between MSQ, beast tribe, side quests, raids, etc) is unrealistic. It isn't like "woops things don't make sense sometimes give up all reasonable expectations for story quality".

[BRVV]

I mean see you here in 6 months when you're still correlating people's views on FFXIV with "excusing genocide" while simultaneously claiming you are not pushing weird, personal moral agendas over a video game.

Then why do we fight the Garleans? The scions are very selective on who is allowed to murder and who is not.

The lack of self awareness is
incredible. I must have really a nerve.

I think i hit yours. That's why you lashed out immediately.

And I will have a great time because I actually think it's interesting to hear other perspectives.

Then why do you seem to lash out on anyone? Why be mad about a differing time travel interpretation?

I think the Elpis visit is an alternate timeline, it's not that big of a deal. And yes I think part of why it is alternate is because we already existed there. It's a shame you are ignoring because I'd be really curious to know why SHB/post SHB hinted this so heavily and why you think they didn't show Azem before the arc ended.

I never said any of this. If we are Azem and Azem already existed there than wouldn't that mean we do in fact exist twice? Just twice in one time.

Also I didn't launch any ad hominem at you-- at least nothing on the scale of questioning your mental health and imply you have a personality disorder. I said your signature gives an indicator of your perception and it does-- what do you mean when is the last time you enjoyed the forums? The only time I don't enjoy them is when I meet people like you, who interpret differing opinions as censorship.

"I didn't ad hominem" followed by ad hominem.

Censorship is

I'm just tired of all of the posts of people like you being full of insults. If you can't take them, maybe don't serve them all the time.

asking people not to say anything and not post, I hope that helps. I don't even regard terms like "reductive" as insulting, maybe that's where a disconnect exists between us. You perceive it as a aggression when it's not. I just feel like expecting bulletproof consistency across a 10 year long MMORPG with the insane level of quests XIV has (between MSQ, beast tribe, side quests, raids, etc) is unrealistic. It isn't like "woops things don't make sense sometimes give up all reasonable expectations for story quality".[/QUOTE]

People acting like Venat knew definitively what the sundering would result in are either trolling or didn't understand the scene.

That's your interpretation. Considering you are making up things that are never stated (like your alternate timeline theory) it's quite strange to not give others some leeway to interpret a scene that only shows a character walking and looking angry.

Yes she knew she was sundering the world and it would result in the loss of their perfect forms and paradise but it's not like she had a full view of the next 1000 years+ and how every reflection would develop on am anthropolical or political level. She also had no real choice because a. No one would have believed her story and b. Summoning Zodiark is itself purposeful and deliberate genocide. Case closed.

Genocide excuses genocide then?

People hand waving it away as some diabolical plan are just mad that EW is the most critically acclaimed expansion of the entire XIV msq AND had the most concurrent players the game will likely ever see.

Sounds like "people that oppose me are just mad because FFXIV:ENDWALKER(TM) was the bestest thing ever!!! Mega succesfull!!1!" by the way

Expecting the highly praised MSQ to make at least the most basic sense is not too much to ask for. People also do that for tv shows. Some of those ran for 10+ years. Back in the day even with 22 episodes per season, one season a year.

[Turtledeluxe]

Just twice in one time

It does mean this and it could cause a temporal paradox, generally speaking. It depends on the rules of XIV, though, which aren't established. That's why it's a theory, which by default leaves room for other interpretations.

ad hominem

Yes but I think it's reasonable to assume that if someone is going into a situation with a negative preconception, they are significantly less likely to produce positive interactions. The way I phrased was reactionary because I felt you were being insulting and I respond to insults with dismissiveness, but what I am saying at the root is that your signature seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. That's not an attack on you as a person.

fulll of insults

But they aren't. You took a handful of quotes from early in the conversation when I honestly did not have a firm handle on what the takes ITT were (there ended being a lot, so many that I hit the post limit, which is why I was wary of your questions as bait).

hominem

Feeling like posts are trolling isn't anger and also, again, that was earlier in the topic and at the time I was seeing 'genocide genocide genocide' and it felt like lazy trolling, sure. It took a bit to get dialogue going that was focused on other elements of the story that are relevant. Yes, the idea no one would have believed Venat is just an opinion etc. (assuming the Elpis visit is the actual history) but I didn't say or imply in any way that it was a dev statement, lore, a side story, etc. I'm not closing off room for other opinions-- maybe the Elpis visit really is the true history of Eorzea, I just find it stupid. The player who likes that isn't stupid.

Sounds like "people that oppose me

I think taking a sarcastic comment and turning it up to 11 as "antisocial psychopath" is a stretch. It's less about people disagreeing with me and more that I truly think part of what drives the criticism about EW (particularly the fact this thread won't die) is that people are often bothered when other people enjoy something they don't. It leads to a need to "expose the truth" etc. Although just to be clear, the onus is on me here as I was reckless with some of my commentary and unprepared for people to have genuine takes based on what I had already seen so far and the OP.

Expecting the highly praised MSQ to make at least the most basic sense is not too much to ask for.

This is true but I'm not certain a TV show running for 10 years has as much collective dialogue as XIV. Between all those quests? Also TV shows don't have to account for a player experiencing each segment, which can affect the storytelling method chosen. Either way I'm not saying "have zero expectations", I'm saying "regarding the time travel, they don't want to explain it bc it won't make sense". And it won't because everyone has their own interpretation of it that they don't want to clamp down on. No matter where they clamp down there will be some logical inconsistency somewhere for someone.