What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Pretty sure suicide is frowned upon.

Isn't Meteion influencing them exactly what happened? They were living a perfectly serene and peaceful life with no awareness of the outside universe, then Meteion showed up and they decided to make Ra-la in response, seemingly on a whim.

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

[Rulakir]

No, all of the cultures she found did this on their own, without outside influence. That's what drove her insane to begin with

The notes within the Dead Ends say otherwise. Meteion is credited with both triggering the world war that decimated world #2 as well as her incessant pestering having caused the existential crisis of world #3 leading to the creation of Ra-la.

[linayar]

Well no, there is a reason, and that reason is if their society was restored as it was, which those sacrifices were intended to accomplish (=restoration of the star to its pre-Final Days state), she believes they're still on track to meet an eventual doom along the lines of the Plenty, hence the way her rationale is presented is that the sundering is to remove the temptation of restoring things as they were. The objection is very clearly centered around this, i.e. the aim and not just the method. You can acknowledge the intention but in the absence of knowing what was involved and whether they'd even stick to this plan if they were given a full accounting of what had happened, it's a rather speculative acknowledgement, and we're stuck with her stated rationale.

The sundering was certainly a means to prevent Zodiark to be used to restore their society, and I believe that is their main objective. But that doesn't mean that is their only reason, because their group's objection to the sacrifice was also pointed out in the story. If the sacrifice itself was irrelevant, the focus would simply be on their objection to the restoration of the society.

Even Venat herself didn't simply say to restore their society is wrong, but to sacrifice more/others to restore their society is bad. (I don't remember the exact wording here, but I'm pretty sure she mentioned the sacrifice.)

It's a fine as an assumption but we must bear in mind that the sundered possess the souls of sundered ancients (as per Elidibus in 5.2), of which some 25% or so of the remaining population were still around at the time. Still, it's possible the bodies were the result of creation magicks, at least for some races, but who knows.

I believe the reason why we possess their souls is simply due to reincarnation via the lifestream. That is why I'm not certain that the sundering actually killed anyone, but rather split off part of their aether into the reflections, with those on the source still remaining as the source or the original/main copy. Then, due to the loss of aether, the Ancients either die off eventually, mutated/evolved as a race, or even mate with some of the new life to get the existing races.

but it was by their own choice, unless meteion influenced it? I don't see it as something bad, I guess

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether suicide is right or wrong, Meteion used that as another support for her conclusion that death is a preferrable outcome and decides that end for everyone else, and that is wrong.

The point is that, just because someone lost the will to live, doesn't mean everyone else would and should too.

[Lauront]

The sundering was certainly a means to prevent Zodiark to be used to restore their society, and I believe that is their main objective. But that doesn't mean that is their only reason, because their group's objection to the sacrifice was also pointed out in the story. If the sacrifice itself was irrelevant, the focus would simply be on their objection to the restoration of the society.

Even Venat herself didn't simply say to restore their society is wrong, but to sacrifice more/others to restore their society is bad. (I don't remember the exact wording here, but I'm pretty sure she mentioned the sacrifice.)

The objection only comes up initially with Hythlodaeus's shade, and it's not until Anamnesis Anyder that we get the underlying motivation behind their position. Her arguments are clearly articulated with sacrifices with a specific aim in mind and which she labels bad for a specific reason, i.e. because they are (according to her) a sign of weakness (again, she even grants that the Convocation in enacting this wish is doing so out of a desire to safeguard the star's future well-being...), and why? Because she sees it as them not accepting their tragedy. This is all with Meteion's report on the fate that met a society which did away with suffering in mind. I wouldn't say she is on board with restoring their society. She is exhorting them to incorporate their lessons from the tragedy and to accept suffering as a constant companion.

The dialogue bears this out:

Bitter Ancient: This is all wrong... Why must we suffer so?
Fervent Ancient: It needn't be like this. No, there must be a way to restore things to the way they were. To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.
Venat: No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise.
Venat: No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion.
Venat: Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.
Bitter Ancient: We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again─a world free of sorrow!
Venat: No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.
Venat: So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness.
Venat: No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.

While I don't see an issue with people speculating that they may have had some moral reasoning attached to this (I certainly don't see it and I don't think we can even arrive at such a conclusion without knowing what was being sacrificed), all the texts where her or her group outline their motives do so with recourse to this ultimate aim, i.e. avoid their eventual doom. She even confirms this when asked by Y'shtola as to why she chose to sunder her people - it was to deal with Meteion (and I'd add to that the fate which met the Plenty.)

I believe the reason why we possess their souls is simply due to reincarnation via the lifestream. That is why I'm not certain that the sundering actually killed anyone, but rather split off part of their aether into the reflections, with those on the source still remaining as the source or the original/main copy. Then, due to the loss of aether, the Ancients either die off eventually, mutated/evolved as a race, or even mate with some of the new life to get the existing races.

It may not have killed them then and there, but at that point we're talking about an instant death versus a delayed one, like a poison or disease would inflict. And to a being that is virtually immortal, that "delay" may not take long at all.

[TaleraRistain]

on the topic of meteion earlier in the thread, why was what the last race of the dead ends dungeon did considered bad again? they willingly let themselves be erased because they've lived perfect lives and that's... wrong? I don't know how to really explain it but if I had to try I'd say that EW trying really, really hard to hammer that 'perfect is bad' (as someone called it) point down was really off-putting for me, and even seemed pretty childish with their message that you must experience suffering or bad things or you're, well, bad

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

[Vahlnir]

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

[KizuyaKatogami]

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

[Vahlnir]

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

"Curiosity killed the cat" probably. lol

[Rulakir]

If only someone had dropped a gaming console in that world. They'd soon find themselves with too little time.

Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

[TaleraRistain]

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

But they did stop striving to do better. What are their metrics for what is good for the star? They were going to write off the serpent because it couldn't fly. Because it was not as it was planned to be. But sometimes the most worthwhile innovations and leaps forward come from accidents.

Then there's the situation with the creations that were killing other creations. They decided based on their own preset ideas of what was right that something like that wouldn't be of use to the star. But they didn't consider that may there was something that sort of danger could teach other creatures. We shouldn't be in conflict all the time, but we can grow from it.

They didn't show indication they could think outside the box like this. And so they stopped progressing as a species.

Also....why does everything have to have a use? Why doesn't something useless deserve to also exist?