What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Tehmon]

The very first Venat cutscene in 5.2 is about how Azem declined her invitation?

To be precise, Venat's group never got a message back from Azem.
And while we don't know what Azem thought of Venat's plan, we do know they were against the creation of Zodiark. So in that, Venat's and Azem's positions are closer than Azem's and the Convocations, as they both agree on the premise that summoning Zodiark was not the way to go.

[Kazhar]

To be precise, Venat's group never got a message back from Azem.
And while we don't know what Azem thought of Venat's plan, we do know they were against the creation of Zodiark. So in that, Venat's and Azem's positions are closer than Azem's and the Convocations, as they both agree on the premise that summoning Zodiark was not the way to go.

This is a bit dishonest. As you said yourself, we don't know what was Azem's true opinion on the Hydaelyn plan, so to say they're closer just because they share a disagreement about one side is a reach. Azem could have thought the very idea of primal summoning through sacrifice was wrong, which would put them firmly against both sides equally.
All we know for sure is that Azem didn't offer support for either camp, which is seemingly in line with ShB's initial premise that neither were right.

EDIT: Also, as others already pointed out, the Codex implies that Azem did in fact decline the invitation and wasn't just missing.

[Tehmon]

This is a bit dishonest. As you said yourself, we don't know what was Azem's true opinion on the Hydaelyn plan, so to say they're closer just because they share a disagreement about one side is a reach. Azem could have thought the very idea of primal summoning through sacrifice was wrong, which would put them firmly against both sides equally.
All we know for sure is that Azem didn't offer support for either camp, which is seemingly in line with ShB's initial premise that neither were right.

Azem didn't just not offer support for the Convocation, they actively opposed to their plans. The wording here is important.

It is true that Azem did not offer support for Venat, but neither does it say anywhere that they opposed anything Venat did.

There is a clear distinction between the two, and if I'm being dishonest, then you are dishonest as well for assuming something about Azem's position based on them not getting in touch with Venat after her group tried to contact them.

Like we both agree on though, we can't make assumptions on Azem's position on Venat, but if that's the case we can't make an assumption that Azem was opposed to Venat's plans either, because nowhere in the game is it said. We can only interpret what it means that Azem never got in contact with Venat after her group tried to contact them, but those are only interpretations.

[Kazhar]

Like we both agree on though, we can't make assumptions on Azem's position on Venat, but if that's the case we can't make an assumption that Azem was opposed to Venat's plans either, because nowhere in the game is it said. We can only interpret what it means that Azem never got in contact with Venat after her group tried to contact them, but those are only interpretations.

The Codex says they didn't get in contact with Venat despite being close to her and instead chose to follow their own ideals to the end (French translation, I don't know how it reads in English). This does strongly imply a disagreement.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Azem didn't just not offer support for the Convocation, they actively opposed to their plans. The wording here is important.

It is true that Azem did not offer support for Venat, but neither does it say anywhere that they opposed anything Venat did.

There is a clear distinction between the two, and if I'm being dishonest, then you are dishonest as well for assuming something about Azem's position based on them not getting in touch with Venat after her group tried to contact them.

Like we both agree on though, we can't make assumptions on Azem's position on Venat, but if that's the case we can't make an assumption that Azem was opposed to Venat's plans either, because nowhere in the game is it said. We can only interpret what it means that Azem never got in contact with Venat after her group tried to contact them, but those are only interpretations.

Had to go back and rewatch those cutscenes so a big whoops on my part for assuming Azem joined Venat's group. But like thats being discussed here, he/she also didnt support the Zodiark plan either which the game while painting the whole sundering thing as the "right" thing, it still had some bit if wiggle room in the msq to also not agree with Venats plan. Which is fair, but then again what wouldve been the best choice anyway? You can be mad at somebody for doing what they did but given the situation and the end results of it, you also cant necessarily entirely blame them for doing what ultimately ended up being good for the world. It also goes with what Yoshida said in one of the Q&A where Venat wasnt so different from the Convocation in terms of asserting their powers for their own causes. At least from what weve seen with Venat, she had a more free form care of the world and its wonders rather than what was painted with the Ancients caring more about their works believing that it was all for the sake of the star.

[Tehmon]

The Codex says they didn't get in contact with Venat despite being close to her and instead chose to follow their own ideals to the end (French translation, I don't know how it reads in English). This does strongly imply a disagreement.

'' When his dear friend and former Azem, Venat, labored to summon Hydaelyn, he did not take part in her plan. Though the circumstances and his reasons were unclear, to the end, Azem walked a path all his own. ''

This implies only that we still do not know whether Azem opposed Venat or not, the same way they opposed the Convocation. If Azem did oppose Venat, why not just say so to discourage her, if they were close confidants?

Either way, everything is an implication, nothing is factual information. I do not claim to be right, but I'm confident in saying you are not right either. Azem is a massive question mark, only their opposition to summoning of Zodiark, and them not joining Venat in her plans, are true.

[Brinne]

It’s kind of hard to say if anyone actually “supported” Venat’s plans since, again, it’s now been established she told nobody what her true plans were beyond an ideological opposition to Zodiark and the impact he would have on their society. Forget Azem - it’s now impossible to say if the people confirmed to actively be on her team would have agreed with her full intentions. As is, never mind the “kill everyone and establish a new world order where suffering creates strength” part of it, Azem refused to join Venat on the principle of just making a counter Zodiark primal.

I would say, if anything can be inferred about Azem from both the WoL and Ardbert, it would be frankly insane to think they would ever entertain the Sundering as acceptable for even an instant - but, well, part of the damage Endwalker ultimately did is that I dunno if I can hold faith in and speculate based on what’s been built up in the past, characterization wise or otherwise, which is unfortunate. Azem will do whatever the writers decide they needed them to do to facilitate their new content.

[Graeham]

This is a bit dishonest.

Yes the forum paladin are the liar. Alan decide to fight the Venar and Loprabbit army because the Venar is evil. Alan have the love for King Solus so he fight for No Shadow God. But Venar was old master so the Alan has hiding the love for Solus King in the secret and support the No Shadow God in the own path. I read this in guild fic. So they exchanging the love letter in the crystal. Is the beautiful story.

In the Shadowbringing Alan must fight against the love because Alan does not know it is the King Solus and the King Solus does not know it is the Alan. Is the tricking of the Venar again to make No Shadow God fight No Shadow God. Is why Venar is pretend herois is making them the true badman. It is double negative is why player get confuse in the translate script.

Guild are also uncomfortable that story say Solus King making the sacrifice of the people to make the mustard race. Is not true he is just harvest soul to rebuild No Shadow God soul. Is like break the egg to eat the omelette. Solus King and friends is not need to kill defect people if Venar had not making people defect. Is good thing to fix is like upgrade computer.

[Kazhar]

Imagine resorting to make a troll account to try to discredit one side of the conversation instead of, I don't know, using arguments to defend their positions.

Either way, everything is an implication, nothing is factual information. I do not claim to be right, but I'm confident in saying you are not right either. Azem is a massive question mark, only their opposition to summoning of Zodiark, and them not joining Venat in her plans, are true.

What do you think my position is? The hard facts are that Azem didn't offer support for either side, and I disagree with your claim that them being opposed to Zodiark's summoning made them closer to Venat's side. For all we know, they disagreed as strongly with Hydaelyn's summoning (and I presented a scenario where this could be possible). We can't really assume with a 100% certainty.
The story team could go in any direction with the character (have them be fully against Hydaelyn, in full support or true neutral) and not really contradict any of the established facts. (well, it could contradict what we know of Azem's character but this is another conversation) Which I suppose is the entire point of making it so vague in the first place.

[Teraq]

Hello there, lurker! Do you want a safe space to take a massive dump on Endwalker, its incredibly obvious emotional manipulation, convoluted "That Happened™" plot, its objectively terrible and tired plot devices – including such brilliant examples as time travel, an intended time loop of misery, a convenient memory-wiping device and The Power Of Friendship that really has no reason to exist as it does other than to be yet another (kinda bad tbh) justification for genocide –, its rather pathetic excuse for an antagonist, its brilliant but perfectly unintended portrayal of Venat as a narcissistic ideologue with the world record of longest-standing bald-faced lie, its dehumanizing narrative and its double standards around the Ancients, what happened to Garlemald (still the best 6.0 MSQ segment in retrospect though), how much you can't stand the christian rock in space and how cheesy that entire section was… but you're turned off by the constant pushback by white knights telling you that you obviously were not paying attention to this incredibly deep and philosophical storytelling (or that you are paying too much attention and are nitpicking and really just turn your brain off – frankly I cannot tell anymore!) and/or can't post on the forums?

We still have a discord server here: https://discord.gg/3Hnn8jHm , and it's still popping.

Bring candied apples…

Imagine resorting to make a troll account to try to discredit one side of the conversation instead of, I don't know, using arguments to defend their positions.

And reported it again, this time explaining the reason for the name and the incredibly targeted nature of it, and its posts.

For the poor newbies unaware: I won't go into detail with the troll's name, but simply know that the fact that Graeham spoke normal English in its first posts before settling on its rather heinous caricature.

The most pathetic thing about it is that it's been posting for months and that it is still referring by name to posters that are no longer active because they've unsubscribed. I cannot emphasize how incredible the derangement here is. The person behind the account (I am hoping they're just a friend of someone, and not someone paying for two accounts…) urgently needs to touch grass. We do have suspicions, but that is neither here nor there.

He is pretty funny actually. And all he writes are exaggerated versions of actual arguments made by the residents in this thread. Ofc, that is why you would block him because reading his posts show just how ridiculous this thread has been, and we can't have that.

Well, of course you find it funny: the people he is falsely characterizing are not "on your side", therefore this blatant, targeted troll is just fine. It is mean-spirited caricature, and the fact that it's been active since June is not a very good look for this forum's moderation, honestly.

This thread has had valuable genuine discussion and has been a safe haven for many of us who have been pushed out of FFXIV space because story dissent is not easily tolerated.

But of course, it's very simple not to address the well-written and reasonable posts on here and simply call them "ridiculous" as a blanket statement. Go on then: where are we wrong or ridiculous? I've seen Kage asked for evidence of "blatantly false" information discussed here – I'm still waiting. Most of the blatantly false talking points I see come from the Endwalker defense squad who spout headcanon we've all heard a hundred times before, such as Zodiark being some sort of blood god, Venat's reasoning being unassailable, the subjects of the third sacrifice being sapient because that is totally obvious and spelled out and fits the THEMES (wildlife can "inherit the star" by the way, to say otherwise would be rejecting Endwalker's aggressive Aesop of non-Ancient life being just as precious – and if that was your only argument for sapience when there is objectively no proof of sapient life other than Ancients as of Endwalker, then you might be stretching just to fit your agenda of Mommy Good), which does not even matter in the first place to Venat's motivations as revealed by EW...

It's exhausting.

Some time ago, people used to do that. Then, they were just told they were wrong/stupid/fanboys. So yeah, I stopped doing that, and others did as well. Idk if the people haunting this thread are the same that used to a year ago, but they weren't here to argue, they were here to vent about how they didn't like the story. Once that was figured out, this thread is just as Striker said, an echo chamber of negativity.

Nothing wrong with its existence, but don't expect people to act respectfully in here, whether they agree with you or not.

Oh, please stop painting yourself as the poor persecuted victim here. You are the one who came in here gatekeeping depression and that is totally why we don't like EW. You were given precisely the amount of respect you deserved for thinking you even had a point in the first place.

Friendly reminder that Hermes was never disclosed to be intended as a portrayal of depression, and attacking people who do not like his character or the story on the basis of "you just don't understand depression!!!!" is absolutely inane.