What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[MikkoAkure]

Eh, considering he killed not only all of the scions but also the WoL in the other timeline he accomplished more than even the likes of Emet selch or any of the ascians really have done during the main course of the game. Also again, in the whole restarting the war thing none of this would’ve happened if they hadn’t been invaded. All he was doing what was done unto their people constantly. If he treats his people fairly i don’t see much of an issue with it. Considering we have city states where slavery is legal, racism is abundant, and genocide to claim land is fine.

Ala Mhigo was invaded and the war restarted because a band of terrorists put on Eorzean Alliance uniforms and attacked a Garlean outpost, following it up with summoning Shinryu. The Eorzean Alliance saw no way out of it other than to continue and besides, at this point all of Eorzea had spent the past 15 years being threatened by Garlemald and had survived 3 failed invasion attempts with Garlean soldiers still to this day present in Eorzean territory. Ala Mhigo wasn't a central part of Garlean territory and it was a 1500 year old sovereign state that wasn't even on Ilsabard, was not a target of Garlean revanchism, and had absolutely no history with the Garlean people at all.

Varis purged a dissenting political party because they said "maybe we shouldn't conquer and destroy people who had nothing to do with our original homeland". When they started gathering together with arms because he was killing them, he gassed them. Part of the point of that plotline, besides reintroducing the gas to people who didn't do SB sidequests, was to show that he's not a good person even to his own people. The Garleans had nothing to do with Aldenard and Othard and a sizeable chunk of the Garlean population agreed with that but Varis destroyed them so that he could continue his insane effort to take over the world and trigger Calamity after Calamity, the first of which ended up destroying Garlemald anyway in 8UC.

Between the civil war Varis led trying to take the throne that caused more chaos than Emet-Selch had hoped and his purge of the Populares, the Garleans probably ended up killing more of their own than any single foreign army had caused. Then his son, who by Varis' own admission had no business being in line for the throne, repossessed his body and ended up killing him and completely obliterated the rest of the country.

What a legacy.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ala Mhigo was invaded and the war restarted because a band of terrorists put on Eorzean Alliance uniforms and attacked a Garlean outpost, following it up with summoning Shinryu. The Eorzean Alliance saw no way out of it other than to continue and besides, at this point all of Eorzea had spent the past 15 years being threatened by Garlemald and had survived 3 failed invasion attempts with Garlean soldiers still to this day present in Eorzean territory. Ala Mhigo wasn't a central part of Garlean territory and it was a 1500 year old sovereign state that wasn't even on Ilsabard, was not a target of Garlean revanchism, and had absolutely no history with the Garlean people at all.

Varis purged a dissenting political party because they said "maybe we shouldn't conquer and destroy people who had nothing to do with our original homeland". When they started gathering together with arms because he was killing them, he gassed them. Part of the point of that plotline, besides reintroducing the gas to people who didn't do SB sidequests, was to show that he's not a good person even to his own people. The Garleans had nothing to do with Aldenard and Othard and a sizeable chunk of the Garlean population agreed with that but Varis destroyed them so that he could continue his insane effort to take over the world and trigger Calamity after Calamity, the first of which ended up destroying Garlemald anyway in 8UC.

Between the civil war Varis led trying to take the throne that caused more chaos than Emet-Selch had hoped and his purge of the Populares, the Garleans probably ended up killing more of their own than any single foreign army had caused. Then his son, who by Varis' own admission had no business being in line for the throne, repossessed his body and ended up killing him and completely obliterated the rest of the country.

What a legacy.

I dont really need the history lesson. I understand the story. Again though, he accomplished something not even most of the other antagonists have accomplished. Also im sorry if i tend to sympathize more with the nation that was manipulated and had no savior to descend unto them and solve their every problem.

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."



I'll give you Sil'dih, though we are talking about a city state that existed hundreds of years ago and has little to do with Ul'dah in the present. But you're grossly exaggerating the reality of the other city states in an attempt to justify what the Garleans did. I can't really take you seriously when you're trying to make out the Eorzean Alliance are "just as bad" when Garlemald has continually sought the conquest and subjugation of other nations for its own glory and brought the racism, rape, genocide and slavery you mentioned to the countless provinces under its control.

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

[Lunaxia]

Ala Mhigo [...]

Sometimes I fancy myself knowledgable about FFXIV lore, and then something like this comes along and puts me to shame. I really wish they'd make more of the dedicated world-building visible in the game. Perhaps with this new Codex we have now? I really enjoyed the Field Notes from Bozja, and I think the rest of the game could more than benefit from something similar.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

It kind of is a non-issue because the people responsible for those things are no longer here today, so they're not really relevant. I feel we're in a bit of a circular argument where you're saying "look what happens in Eorzea!" and I'm answering that whatever may be happening there has been perpetuated by Garlemald on a much wider, more deliberate and more devastating scale, to which you're responding "but the Eorzeans do it too!" No one is claiming the city states are perfect; their problems have featured prominently in the storyline, and not without some condemnation from the Scions themselves. But this argument of Garlemald being backed into a corner and "making do with what they had" to justify atrocities they committed just doesn't work, and it hasn't done since they progressed from a nation seeking survival to a nation devoted to conquest.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Sometimes I fancy myself knowledgable about FFXIV lore, and then something like this comes along and puts me to shame. I really wish they'd make more of the dedicated world-building visible in the game. Perhaps with this new Codex we have now? I really enjoyed the Field Notes from Bozja, and I think the rest of the game could more than benefit from something similar.



It kind of is a non-issue because the people responsible for those things are no longer here today, so they're not really relevant. I feel we're in a bit of a circular argument where you're saying "look what happens in Eorzea!" and I'm answering that whatever may be happening there has been perpetuated by Garlemald on a much wider, more deliberate and more devastating scale, to which you're responding "but the Eorzeans do it too!" No one is claiming the city states are perfect; their problems have featured prominently in the storyline, and not without some condemnation from the Scions themselves. But this argument of Garlemald being backed into a corner and "making do with what they had" to justify atrocities they committed just doesn't work, and it hasn't done since they progressed from a nation seeking survival to a nation devoted to conquest.

Yes, and again, its easy to remedy those situations when you literally have a demi-god character who helps solve all of your problems.Whereas with Garlemald they were raised where you either grow strong and defend yourself or someone will come and take everything you hold dear. The city states dont have to worry about that anymore because guess what? anyone who disagrees with them points us at them and asks us to kill them. In the end though i guess it all comes back to Venat. Lets all thank her for creating the wonderful world of war,rape,and illness. Because its just so much better than the unsundered world.

[tokinokanatae]

And Garlemald wouldn't have been invaded in the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline if he'd been smart enough to shore up his hold on the country instead of immediately invading a foreign country, like, two seconds after he barely won a war of succession. You do understand that being invaded to the point where he has to use the death gas is also a failure, right? If someone can make it to your doorstep and the only way you can fight them off is to kill everything including yourselves, you lost.

[Theodric]

And Garlemald wouldn't have been invaded in the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline if he'd been smart enough to shore up his hold on the country instead of immediately invading a foreign country, like, two seconds after he barely won a war of succession. You do understand that being invaded to the point where he has to use the death gas is also a failure, right? If someone can make it to your doorstep and the only way you can fight them off is to kill everything including yourselves, you lost.

He had two powerful Ascians breathing down his neck to force his hand and nobody around him to lean on for reliable aid without the expectation of weakening the position of his people and causing the Empire to crumble. I'm sure both Elidibus and Emet-Selch were both well aware that if needed they could simply kill Varis and puppet his corpse.

Certainly, he lost - but such losses come about due to the game's silly habit of stripping the antagonists of absolutely everything they care about whilst denying them the same courtesies extended to the protagonists. Certainly, if Varis could count on dying and then immediately coming back a few minutes completely unscathed then things might have been different for his cause!

At any rate, I like Russian and Roman aesthetics and want to see more of them moving forward. Ideally beneath a strong, united banner and strong leader figure who puts his or her people first and foremost. Variety is the spice of life and it'd be nice to see some more variety in terms of the game's nations.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And Garlemald wouldn't have been invaded in the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline if he'd been smart enough to shore up his hold on the country instead of immediately invading a foreign country, like, two seconds after he barely won a war of succession. You do understand that being invaded to the point where he has to use the death gas is also a failure, right? If someone can make it to your doorstep and the only way you can fight them off is to kill everything including yourselves, you lost.

Considering that his people didn’t have an almighty person full of plot armor to solve all their problems i’d say he did pretty damn well under the circumstances. Considering the only reason there was an opposing army in the first places was because of us i’d say it’s a little unfair but even then, he still managed to kill us. Something no one else has been able to do…

[Theodric]

Stripped of the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, when it came to safeguarding their people from Primals how far does one think the City State leaders would go? How bloody would their hands be, I wonder?

It's easy look back with hindsight and criticise the actions of a character forced into an impossible position but I've noticed it often involves stripping away the nuance that exists - such as the innate disadvantage Garleans have by not being able to manipulate aether as easily as the other races as well as the very long history of being on the defensive. So I'm happy to forgive them for reacting less than perfectly when pushed into a corner.

That aside, it's also fiction - so I don't need in-game nations to be a lazy copy and paste of real world modern concerns and ideals. Especially when all it would take is a solar flare destroying the power grids to fling the entirety of the world into chaos and then what is considered 'moral' or 'necessary' would change rather swiftly.

[KizuyaKatogami]

A great and fair leader (who employed censorship, hung dissenters or else ran them out of the country, and sought to deploy a deadly gas with the potential to kill thousands.) Apart from that, he's a thoroughly delightful chap.

I will say his ending was bizarrely grisly though, I was actually quite shocked they went that far, especially given the overall "lighter" tone of Endwalker. I almost felt sorry for him. I don't think anyone else has come close, except possibly Adeledji.



I think by now the Garleans are probably more than a little scarred by their experiences, and the last thing they need is yet another would-be dictator proferring a benevolent hand and promising to guide them out of the darkness. I'd be having war flashbacks (quite literally.)

And we have a dictator who committed mass genocide against a group of creatures to steal their land, a “leader” who still allows slavery in her city to this day, and a “leader” who bends to the will of forest sprites and allows them to have their way and turns a blind eye to the mass racism happening to her people resulting in the rape and hanging and murder of many. The city state leaders are quite literally as bad as him yet he’s the only one to face repercussions despite in the end him just doing what’s best for his people and doing unto others what was done to him. Also…are we just going to ignore the fact uldah basically gassed an entire population and turned them into zombies?

[Lunaxia]

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."

And we have a dictator who committed mass genocide against a group of creatures to steal their land, a “leader” who still allows slavery in her city to this day, and a “leader” who bends to the will of forest sprites and allows them to have their way and turns a blind eye to the mass racism happening to her people resulting in the rape and hanging and murder of many. The city state leaders are quite literally as bad as him yet he’s the only one to face repercussions despite in the end him just doing what’s best for his people and doing unto others what was done to him. Also…are we just going to ignore the fact uldah basically gassed an entire population and turned them into zombies?

I'll give you Sil'dih, though we are talking about a city state that existed hundreds of years ago and has little to do with Ul'dah in the present. But you're grossly exaggerating the reality of the other city states in an attempt to justify what the Garleans did. I can't really take you seriously when you're trying to make out the Eorzean Alliance are "just as bad" when Garlemald has continually sought the conquest and subjugation of other nations for its own glory and brought the racism, rape, genocide and slavery you mentioned to the countless provinces under its control.

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.