What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

I wouldn't expect anyone to be familiar with every post that has been put forward though from what I've seen, a lot of the people criticising G'raha have spoken at length about not wanting Alisae to have a 'crush' upon their character as well. Furthermore, the Y'shtola baby talk scene was something discussed quite heavily within this very thread so...I strongly disagree with the idea that G'raha is being unfairly targeted. He just happens to be the most actively promoted lately.

[Lauront]

I wouldn't expect anyone to be familiar with every post that has been put forward though from what I've seen, a lot of the people criticising G'raha have spoken at length about not wanting Alisae to have a 'crush' upon their character as well. Furthermore, the Y'shtola baby talk scene was something discussed quite heavily within this very thread so...I strongly disagree with the idea that G'raha is being unfairly targeted. He just happens to be the most actively promoted lately.

Agreed, it's not unique to him. The slice of life stuff is an issue for some of us. Again, not a pivotal issue, but it doesn't do much for my enjoyment of the MSQ, and it is at the point where I wish I could bench some Scions and pick who is going along. Plus I'd like more dialogue options in response to them... much as I would've liked the same with Venat. It's a difference to me of her actions necessitating it and a "nice to have" for the Scions. In the case of Y'shtola I did not like what they did with her in 6.1 at all - she's not my favourite character by a longshot, but it undermined her character for me.

With that said, this thread circles back more on Venat or Hermes than any other characters for its grievances - justified, given their role in the plot, but G'raha does not receive anything like what those two do and when he comes up, it is for different reasons altogether.

Regarding Magnai being characterised as 'creepy' within his own culture, would someone jog my memory as to what's being referenced here? Genuine question as I've forgotten the ins and outs of that. That being said, the Steppes are not exactly the pinnacle of refined behaviour to begin with, and far worse goes on there than some advances he makes to women which he never forces himself upon. He is a tribal warlord at the end of the day and his demeanour and mentality fit with that to the degree the story allows it to. Y'shtola even remarked on his advances as better than most she's been on the receiving end of.

[Midareyukki]

Agreed, it's not unique to him. The slice of life stuff is an issue for some of us. Again, not a pivotal issue, but it doesn't do much for my enjoyment of the MSQ, and it is at the point where I wish I could bench some Scions and pick who is going along. Plus I'd like more dialogue options in response to them... much as I would've liked the same with Venat. It's a difference to me of her actions necessitating it and a "nice to have" for the Scions. In the case of Y'shtola I did not like what they did with her in 6.1 at all - she's not my favourite character by a longshot, but it undermined her character for me.

With that said, this thread circles back more on Venat or Hermes than any other characters for its grievances - justified, given their role in the plot, but G'raha does not receive anything like what those two do and when he comes up, it is for different reasons altogether.

Regarding Magnai being characterised as 'creepy' within his own culture, would someone jog my memory as to what's being referenced here? The Steppes are not exactly the pinnacle of refined behaviour to begin with, and far worse goes on there than some advances he makes to women which he never forces himself upon. He is a tribal warlord at the end of the day and his demeanour and mentality fit with that to the degree the story allows it to. Y'shtola even remarked on his advances as better than most she's been on the receiving end of.

I'll say something that I'm not even certain of myself, but here goes: I think it's his insistence that someone is his Nhaama. Nhaama being a goddess rival and lover to Azim, the Sun God Magnai's tribe worships, really makes him look like he's weird. In a Judeo-Christian context, imagine you saying you're Joseph and are longing for your Mary. And going around asking people if they're your Mary. Even if you're not too religious, you would at least think the guy has a few screws loose.

As for Endwalker G'raha, Y'shtola...
I think Y'shtola's magical girl bit was just the writers performing a Japanese meme.
G'raha does at least one thing that the other Scions can't do without it looking weird, at least not so immediate. He provides the Warrior of Light with a friend they can just chill with. Which I think explains the SoL bits?

We could have a casual meeting with Y'shtola, Thancred or Urianger with food at the Seventh Heaven but we know it'd be mature and with either a lot of talking about complex matters or about planning for the future like your parents.
We could have it with Alphinaud, but it'd be formal. With Alisaie, it'd be closer to what we have with G'raha, but she's still got some formality and sense of duty to her, it wouldn't really happen.
With G'raha you at least have someone who would munch on a burger so carefreely while chatting about literally anything.
Such a scene with Estinien would just be awkward side glances.

What details? We already know he wants go on adventures with the WoL. The 5.x patches established that. What freshness and details are you talking about because from where i'm sitting that character has somehow regressed during EW. He had ONE moment during the panic where the writers remembered he was the Exarch and wrote him as such but outside of that he has not shown any character growth. People can call it whatever they want but at the end of the day the writers had an active choice on how to present said character and they chose, well, you know, lol.

No, I'm talking about said future adventures as established in 5.X patches. Those are the ones I'm expecting to give him some tribulation to get some further detail.

I'd otherwise say, yes, his character growth happened off-screen for the most part, and then we just fine tune it over the course of Shadowbringers-proper. Endwalker just established where he was at that point and his outlook, like all the other Scions. Not much growth or development for almost any of them. Just "Here is where we stand".

[CrownySuccubus]

Regarding Magnai being characterised as 'creepy' within his own culture, would someone jog my memory as to what's being referenced here? Genuine question as I've forgotten the ins and outs of that. That being said, the Steppes are not exactly the pinnacle of refined behaviour to begin with, and far worse goes on there than some advances he makes to women which he never forces himself upon. He is a tribal warlord at the end of the day and his demeanour and mentality fit with that to the degree the story allows it to. Y'shtola even remarked on his advances as better than most she's been on the receiving end of.

Magnai's behavior basically comes across as the equivalent of cat-calling. While he isn't portrayed as particularly predatory, the "joke" is that his advances are almost always completely out of nowhere or out of context, and the woman he is hitting on has zero interest in that at the moment. Not unlike, say, a waitress getting hit on while she's trying to do her job or a woman getting whistled at while walking down the street. Not all that aggressive, compared to some of the worst behavior, but the general reaction to it is "WTF?" at worst and "Uhhh...thanks but no thanks" at best.

I don't remember exactly the line, but I do recall optional dialogue with either Cirina or Sadu where they say that female Xaela much prefer spending time with Sadu and Cirina than Magnai because he makes them uncomfortable.

And....how is this any different than how many people view Graha?

("than how a handful of people view Graha")

Anyway:

MAGNAI: "I am the sun! See how great I am!? Oh, and will you become my Nhaama?!"

G'RAHA: "Hey, if it's not too much trouble...and if it is, I'll completely understand...but would you mind taking me on your next adventure?"

Yep. Completely the same.

(INCIDENTALLY, I'm out of daily posts....so see you guys manana.)

EDIT: Nevermind. Guess we're doing this now.

Of course, there's the other side to Magnai which I, and many other men, can somewhat empathize with. Men are expected in society at large to make advances on women. Most of us are bad at it, because it's a pretty difficult thing to do. Most women will never know what it's like to make advances on someone, because they aren't expected to, and largely do not have too. Yet, in spite of this, they criticize every man's approach that does not make them feel at ease, often drawing on lived experience to designate an approach as cringe, unwanted, unwarranted, and whatever other words you wanna add that are synonymous with, "Don't, you shouldn't have, terrible."

I don't really have the time or desire to unpack ALL of this, but the primary difference between male and female flirtation comes down to sense of danger. Most men (especially tough Alpha Male guys) don't feel at all physically threatened by a woman that flirts with them, and even if they did, wouldn't want to admit it. Women, on the other hand, are not only taught to fear men (by both women AND men themselves), but it's also common for guys to see even the slightest positive reaction as an invitation to flirt more. They aren't specifically to blame for this -- it is legitimately hard to pick up signals -- but the risk of getting these signals wrong is not worth the risk of a guy believing he has a shot when that wasn't your intention, and then feel like you were "leading him on" when you're forced to say you aren't interested. So, for these complicated reasons (amongst other ones that, as I said, I'm not going unpack today), women just avoid directly asking someone out.

In regards to Magnai, he has another problem. Magnai has a bit of an ego problem, and the women of the Steppe don't seem to be into that. Magnai typically revels in flaunting his status and physical might to a religious extreme, and thus any woman who is either A) not privy to the same faith or B) uncomfortable with "preening" don't like it. Or, in the case of Cirina and Y'shtola, both. Magnai's joke is that he's only Foreveralone because he makes terrible first impressions, and he just doesn't GET that.

And how is this any different from how Graha acts with us? Its how many people myself included perceive him.

The short answer is that G'raha is extremely humble about how he approaches and asks you and, likewise, doesn't actually expect you to say "yes". While the game's "sin" is not actually giving the player the option to say no, G'raha is very softspoken. And all of this is just ask to tagalong on an adventure. Magnai, meanwhile, usually preambles his approaches with monlogues about destiny and the sun, already making the situation awkward before he basically proposes marriage.

There's ALSO the fact that G'raha is already the WOL's friend. (Okay, sure, maybe not YOUR WOL...but again, you have no choice with pretty much anybody, let alone G'raha.) G'raha isn't some complete stranger walking up and asking if you're their soulmate....which is what Magnai does. As I said above, Magnai's biggest problem (with the joke being that he doesn't get it) is terrible first impressions.

I dont think its fair to just downplay it as a "handful of people."

Whatever. I'm no longer in debating the semantical doublespeak between "Fan favorite character" and an opposing minority.

I also dont see how what Magnai does is catcalling...he isnt approaching every single woman on the steppes to be his nhamma

And another joke is actually that he might have done just that. We're flat out told that he's made a number of women on the Steppe uncomfortable, and the first thing he asks about whenever he talks to you about some new land is whether there's women there. The joke implies that he actually DOES hit on anywhere between 50 - 75% of the women he comes across. Which is another reason he leaves a bad impression.

and those he does approach, he takes no for an answer. Unlike Graha where we dont have that option, it feels gross.

Okay.

I guess we'll keep waiting for the option to dismiss party members.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Magnai's behavior basically comes across as the equivalent of cat-calling. While he isn't portrayed as particularly predatory, the "joke" is that his advances are almost always completely out of nowhere or out of context, and the woman he is hitting on has zero interest in that at the moment. Not unlike, say, a waitress getting hit on while she's trying to do her job or a woman getting whistled at while walking down the street. Not all that aggressive, compared to some of the worst behavior, but the general reaction to it is "WTF?" at worst and "Uhhh...thanks but no thanks" at best.

I don't remember exactly the line, but I do recall optional dialogue with either Cirina or Sadu where they say that female Xaela much prefer spending time with Sadu and Cirina than Magnai because he makes them uncomfortable.



("than how a handful of people view Graha")

Anyway:

MAGNAI: "I am the sun! See how great I am!? Oh, and will you become my Nhaama?!"

G'RAHA: "Hey, if it's not too much trouble...and if it is, I'll completely understand...but would you mind taking me on your next adventure?"

Yep. Completely the same.

(INCIDENTALLY, I'm out of daily posts....so see you guys manana.)

And how is this any different from how Graha acts with us? Its how many people myself included perceive him. I dont think its fair to just downplay it as a "handful of people." Theres many people ive met that feel the same way, they just feel too nervous to post about it because of how people lash out at anyone who critiques him...ironically the same way people complain about how people lash out at them for critiquing Endwalkers story. I also dont see how what Magnai does is catcalling...he isnt approaching every single woman on the steppes to be his nhamma and those he does approach, he takes no for an answer. Unlike Graha where we dont have that option, it feels gross.

This an entirely biased interpretation. It is not ever him talking like that...for really either of them. For yshtola he was actually even complimenting her strength and not himself.As for Graha when has he ever mentioned it like that. His fawning is always entirely out of nowhere.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I wouldn't expect anyone to be familiar with every post that has been put forward though from what I've seen, a lot of the people criticising G'raha have spoken at length about not wanting Alisae to have a 'crush' upon their character as well. Furthermore, the Y'shtola baby talk scene was something discussed quite heavily within this very thread so...I strongly disagree with the idea that G'raha is being unfairly targeted. He just happens to be the most actively promoted lately.

He’s also the biggest mary sue of them all recently that basically takes the spotlight and possible character depth away from other characters. Who needs flow when he can teleport everyone with 0 consequences. Who needs urianger as the bookworm when he just knows sooooo much.People dont seem to understand its not just his appearance, or personality or what have you. It's a combination of all of these factors. People just like to use blanket statements or write it off as you dont like him because of how he looks. I actually found graha somewhat cute as exarch. Now, hes hard for me to look at and it isnt his appearance doing that.

Don't play the 3rd Birthday.

We dont talk about this game. It is NOT a part of the PE series and i stand by that statement.

[Midareyukki]

He’s also the biggest mary sue of them all recently that basically takes the spotlight and possible character depth away from other characters. Who needs flow when he can teleport everyone with 0 consequences. Who needs urianger as the bookworm when he just knows sooooo much.

...Can we honestly give this G'raha circlejerk a rest? Because here's the thing. Remove G'raha, or better yet no, go back a few expansions, just before Shadowbringers.

Urianger is the bookworm, who could possibly outdo him?
Y'shtola sitting there cutely in the corner.

It's the Scions and they're Sharlayan. You WILL have bookworms.

G'raha has his flaws, we all know that, him having a bit more spotlight to get some more freshness and detail into him isn't bad, and the game isn't over yet so we most likely will have them.

So really, just give it a rest. As you were...

[KizuyaKatogami]

...Can we honestly give this G'raha circlejerk a rest? Because here's the thing. Remove G'raha, or better yet no, go back a few expansions, just before Shadowbringers.

Urianger is the bookworm, who could possibly outdo him?
Y'shtola sitting there cutely in the corner.

It's the Scions and they're Sharlayan. You WILL have bookworms.

G'raha has his flaws, we all know that, him having a bit more spotlight to get some more freshness and detail into him isn't bad, and the game isn't over yet so we most likely will have them.

So really, just give it a rest. As you were...

But when its separated amongst themselves thats good. It gives them all their own depth. Fast forward to EW where yshtola basically does nothing of substance because anything she can do(example, flow) Graha can do but better. Not sure why its so crazy to talk about one character but circlejerk hating on venat and hermes is fine?

[Raoabolic]

G'raha has his flaws, we all know that, him having a bit more spotlight to get some more freshness and detail into him isn't bad, and the game isn't over yet so we most likely will have them.

What details? We already know he wants go on adventures with the WoL. The 5.x patches established that. What freshness and details are you talking about because from where i'm sitting that character has somehow regressed during EW. He had ONE moment during the panic where the writers remembered he was the Exarch and wrote him as such but outside of that he has not shown any character growth. People can call it whatever they want but at the end of the day the writers had an active choice on how to present said character and they chose, well, you know, lol.